Paypal friends and family not safe? (not a cc chargeback case)

[kugogizo]

WARNING! Off-site contact information posted. Most scams occur off-site. Please contact members directly via EpicNPC chat. We do not investigate disputes if you communicate off-site.

I sold some d2r items worth 150$ to someone called Margie Greene (on paypal) and Akechi#4448 on discord (discord id: 791519275536875520), I woke up today and I saw that paypal refunded the money, here is the screenshot:

The payment was done for friends and family, I thought it was impossible to claim money back from f&f unless you chargeback with your credit card, in this case I lost the money because of unauthorized access which I don't really know what it is. I didn't even have the time to react, the case was closed within 4-5 hours while I was sleeping.

Be aware when you trade with this buyer, I would report him on the scammer forum but I don't know who is he in this site.

 

[AZURAKAGAMI]

We have an individual section for this - https://www.epicnpc.com/forums/off-site-scammers.30/

Someone from higher-ups will move this thread for you I suppose and sorry for your loss.

 

[kugogizo]

We have an individual section for this - https://www.epicnpc.com/forums/off-site-scammers.30/

Someone from higher-ups will move this thread for you I suppose and sorry for your loss.

I posted it here because I also want an opinion about f&f, I guess it was better to make a separate thread for this.

 

[AZURAKAGAMI]

I posted it here because I also want an opinion about f&f, I guess it was better to make a separate thread for this.

Well, If you have any other options for receiving or sending payments such as Wise, Revolut, or Crypto. I highly recommend using those. PayPal is a headache to deal with.

Hope this will help pal!

What happens if the payment is chargebacks?
Trade Guardian does not protect against payment chargebacks. We recommend opening a dispute against this member in our Dispute Forum.

Does the MM Service protect against account recalls?
No, Trade Guardian does not protect against account recalls. We recommend opening a dispute against this member in our Dispute Forum.

Why use this service if it doesn't protect against chargeback or recalls?
Most scams occur during the time of sale. Someone pays and never receives the item or they give the item and the other person never pays. Trade Guardian protects against these types of scams which are the most common.

Is sending payment as Family & Friends via Paypal safe?
Many sellers prefer Paypal payments to be sent as Family & Friends as it provides extra chargeback protection. However, the buyer is not required to send as F&F. The buyer and seller should discuss this and come to an agreement. Even though it added extra chargeback protection, Paypal still allows these payments to be disputed, so it's okay to send this way.

Source - https://www.epicnpc.com/infocenter/trade_guardian-mm-services.html

Before you start reading. Our team is very sorry that you got scammed and to prevent those incidents for future purchases or sales. Do your research - What does it mean? Check that member's reputation on our site and verify his identity first so you won't fall for an impostor. (in case you guys are chatting on a third communication platform such as Discord).

It various in situations but if that happens. Open a thread in our Active Dispute Forum.

We do not investigate Discord disputes. Please contact members on our website. This rule applies if you didn't verify a member through our EpicNPC chat, it won't be investigated. Why? Because there are hundreds of impersonators and previously banned scammers who are trying to scam again. My advice is to chat via our EpicNPC chat system but if you still insist to use discord or any other communication platform - ALWAYS VERIFY A MEMBER THROUGH OUR CHAT SYSTEM BEFORE PROCEEDING WITH THE DEAL SO YOU HAVE ASSURANCE THAT YOU ARE TALKING TO THAT SPECIFIC MEMBER.

You should always follow this Dispute form and open your thread for our Staff to review.

If you were scammed off-site on our website, open a thread on this forum - Off-Site Scammers. It means if you guys chatted via third-party communication such as Discord, Skype, Whatsapp, etc. and didn't verify each other. We do not investigate those cases BUT you can share your experience and help other members to prevent a scammer to scam again!

What can I do if the accused member refuses to cooperate?

In case you lost your gaming account
If you are the original owner, you should contact the support of the game (Blizzard, Mihoyo, Riot Games, etc.) and try to recover it by yourself by providing all necessary information needed such as date of creation, a device of creation, etc. (it depends on which game you want to recall).

Sadly, if you are not the original owner and neither you don't have any recovery information. There is a low probability that you will see the money or the item you purchased. In case you knows the original owner. Try to contact him and resolve this issue.

In case you paid for an item and it got banned, recalled, or damaged

Paid via PayPal Goods and Services
Open a case in PayPal and follow these steps - Disputes, claims, chargebacks, and bank reversals.
Find your case and hopefully it will help.

Paid via PayPal Friends and Family
Sadly, since the item was purchased this way. It will be hard to open a case here. But there is a chance to get your money back! My advice is to call your bank and tell them, that unauthorized payment was made and ask them to proceed with further action. In most cases, they will help you. It really depends on how long has it been since the payment occurred.

Paid via Crypto, Wise, pre-purchased cards, gift cards
sadly, guys, there is not much to do here.

 

[kugogizo]

Ok thank you for this info

I didn't know that f&f payments can still be disputed and that it was so easy to get a refund by contacting your bank.

There is no hope for paypal.

 

[Kai]

Ok thank you for this info

I didn't know that f&f payments can still be disputed and that it was so easy to get a refund by contacting your bank.

There is no hope for paypal.

It can go either way with F&F, all depends on the situation, and if you used a credit card or PayPal balance, so you’re better off using G&S and following these steps to avoid chargebacks:

https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/safe-trading-practices.1840043/

 

[Playboi]

I usually just stay away from PP when selling stuff.. PP has always protected buyers.

 

[kugogizo]

I usually just stay away from PP when selling stuff.. PP has always protected buyers.

I learned that today the hard way, Today is the funeral of my paypal account. I got scammed by another chargebacker, it's possible for them to chargeback all of the payments they ever done to you. my paypal is now dead and I will never use it again.

It's not easy to stay away from paypal as a reseller when everyone wants to use this to pay. If I didn't use paypal I wouldn't make as much money in the previous months.

Luckily, I had no money into it but the real price will now come from losing lots of customers.

 

[Kai]

It comes down to risk management. If you think dropping PayPal will lose you the majority of sales, just resolve your balance, and use G&S under the method I linked above. While it’s never nice to see a dispute notice from PayPal, If there is a positive in all this at least it was a smaller amount, and you had no balance at the time. This could be a good time to reevaluate how you conduct business.

 

[kugogizo]

It comes down to risk management. If you think dropping PayPal will lose you the majority of sales, just resolve your balance, and use G&S under the method I linked above. While it’s never nice to see a dispute notice from PayPal, If there is a positive in all this at least it was a smaller amount, and you had no balance at the time. This could be a good time to reevaluate how you conduct business.

I was thinking to keep paypal for small payments up to 30$ but since they can chargeback all of their payments, it doesn't matter much now, the second chargeback hurted me much more but it is not closed yet and it may end up in my favor since that buyer was buying daily from me for one month straight, it doesn't make sense that all of his payments were unauthorized but who knows... My major failure with these chargebacks is that I didn't realize you can chargeback all of your payments at once, I thought you could use your card to reverse one transaction only. It almost gave me PTSD watching all of her payments reversed.

Paypal was a major psychological obstacle for me, I was nervous when I had money into it, today all of my paranoia became reality. I will just tank the loss, I will lose revenue but I will no longer fear anything, I kinda understand the psychology of the buyers, they have no problem registering with a platform, their real problem is doing more than that, I will find a crypto wallet that is easy to register with and use. It would be nice if there was a sticky thread on each subforum that does some crypto promotion similar to how there are account buying guidelines, the thread could say what wallet to use to register and use fast etc. It would help the forum too since it accepts mostly crypto payments now.

 

[AZURAKAGAMI]

I was thinking to keep paypal for small payments up to 30$ but since they can chargeback all of their payments, it doesn't matter much now, the second chargeback hurted me much more but it is not closed yet and it may end up in my favor since that buyer was buying daily from me for one month straight, it doesn't make sense that all of his payments were unauthorized but who knows... My major failure with these chargebacks is that I didn't realize you can chargeback all of your payments at once, I thought you could use your card to reverse one transaction only. It almost gave me PTSD watching all of her payments reversed.

Paypal was a major psychological obstacle for me, I was nervous when I had money into it, today all of my paranoia became reality. I will just tank the loss, I will lose revenue but I will no longer fear anything, I kinda understand the psychology of the buyers, they have no problem registering with a platform, their real problem is doing more than that, I will find a crypto wallet that is easy to register with and use. It would be nice if there was a sticky thread on each subforum that does some crypto promotion similar to how there are account buying guidelines, the thread could say what wallet to use to register and use fast etc. It would help the forum too since it accepts mostly crypto payments now.

Or you can use the PayPal option for customers that you know and have been dealing with them for some time. That's what I am actually doing since I already know them. I am not scared that they will chargeback.

I highly recommend using other payment methods. PayPal is on market since 1998 which is why it can dictate and direct the market as it is. Customer support is the worst and fees are huge...

 

[kugogizo]

Or you can use the PayPal option for customers that you know and have been dealing with them for some time. That's what I am actually doing since I already know them. I am not scared that they will chargeback.

I highly recommend using other payment methods. PayPal is on market since 1998 which is why it can dictate and direct the market as it is. Customer support is the worst and fees are huge...

The first chargeback was from someone that I indeed didn't have any history with (the 150$ one), the second one was from someone that paid me daily for one month and not only that, she paid me a lot, can you ever expect that such a person will reverse the payment? I had huge margins from this person, I was making like 70$ daily from her alone and yes I didn't lose this money, I still have them, I was able to afford a lot this month thanks to this person, so both my greed and common sense got in the way and told me to keep doing it. Nonetheless, it was a great lesson.

It doesn't matter much, at least paypal was not sacrificed for nothing, the money that I got from it made a difference in my life, its death was inevitable though, so it's better to get used to it. At least I don't need it for anything besides this rmt activity.

 

[kugogizo]

It can go either way with F&F, all depends on the situation, and if you used a credit card or PayPal balance, so you’re better off using G&S and following these steps to avoid chargebacks:

https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/safe-trading-practices.1840043/

Hey sorry for double posting

I saw this on your safe trading guide:

• Gift cards are not a bad option in a lot of ways as many companies will not void the balance if it gets chargebacked.

I have been thinking a lot about alternative ways to accept Paypal, gift cards sound like a smart option because they can purchase them easily with Paypal but then you carry the burden of selling them which may cost you when it comes to converting them into cash.

One final option that I consider before I drop Paypal entirely are paysafe cards, you can buy them very easily through various online marketplaces with Paypal without even registering an account and they don't have the drawback of gift cards, you can immediately convert them into cash and use them with a credit card.

What do you think about this method? (unless I misunderstood you and you consider it a gift card too)

I don't see anyone mentioning it but it looks very smart, I may miss something though.

Edit: Nevermind I just realized there are tons of gift cards that can be converted into cash. Binance offers some as well so no need for paysafe. This is the key for Paypal, you can accept it indirectly.

Edit 2: The service fees for buying gift cards online that can be converted to cash directly are high, they almost match the reseller's margin, it's not worth it, however I found a local store that delivers paysafe cards online with a very affordable fee, I want to add that paysafe is local only so it depends on your country....mine is not the best but I have some options.