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TheSlowKid

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After keeping up with the Thread in the scammers section I feel that John was not able to get full words in. I personally think there is a LOT of grey area on this site and a lot of the decisions that are made aren't always the best. I don't think what happened in this case is 100% fair at all. What is everyone else's thoughts?

Hey Guys,

This is John Fitch, aka Toon Vendor, from EpicNPC, which was formerly known as Markee Dragon. As a lot of you may know, I have been temporarily banned from EpicNPC due to a recent thread created by a Ryan *****. I know a lot of you have been concerned about my ban, and I'm here to present my side of the story, and hopefully after reading this thread, you will understand where I'm coming from, and why I shouldn't have been temp banned from the EpicNPC forums. I wish I could have presented something like this in my “trial” where many members essentially threw stones at me, many of whom I’ve never talked with, but unlike a lot of users who are given weeks to present their side, I was only given 24 hours before I was banned. This short period of time is a slap in the face given how many years I’ve spent building my reputation in this community. Hopefully by the end of this thread, you will understand where I am coming from, and agree that I do not deserve the harsh punishment I had cast upon me.

Lets start things off by taking a look at the thread created by Ryan *****. Ryan was an interesting client of mine over the past few weeks, very impulsive and very easy to change his mind. He initially came to me asking me for help recovering a scarab lord warrior he owned with full tier 3 and ashbringer that was scammed from him. I know what you're thinking OMG that warrior sounds so amazing, and so was I. That’s why I agreed to make an exception in my usual policy, and chose to help him get it back from the original owner who recalled it despite it not coming through me.

In order to recover it, I had to get a fake ID made. So we tried to recover it, sadly the warrior had been gone for two years and after many forms we couldn't get it back. Though I explained to Ryan before hand that I couldn't guarantee I could get it back, but that I would try my best and he knows that I did. We decided to use most of the money that he had paid me to try to get it back and apply it to his store credit. The entire decision to help Ryan was a favor, as it was something I only do for clients and he wasn’t one. On top of that, the money he paid for my hours of work trying to get his account back was given to him as store credit, meaning I slaved hours over forms and phone calls with Blizzard for free. Ryan was very unappreciative, and used this against me in his smear campaign.

Eventually Ryan settled on a $3,000 warlock, and I let him start playing it early even though my payment plan policy states that you must pay 30% off before obtaining login information for an account. I honestly believed he was financially stable enough, and let him on early with only $400 paid off, of the $900 which was typically required. Ryan came to me a few days later and said that his wife was pregnant, and that he could no longer afford the account. I admit I was initially upset as I've heard pretty much every excuse in the book when you start loaning people money. So I explained to him that because he paid that money as a deposit he wouldn't be getting it back, needless to say Ryan was outraged. I had already changed the account information as a lot of people do try to something reckless (such as deleting items etc.) when they're upset with me on my policy.

I told Ryan to calm down, and that we'd discuss the account more saturday. I also told him I would hold the warlock for him for nearly 30 days, and he would have that time to get at least $900 to me and then I would release login information to him. Ryan was VERY upset. Ryan was constantly blowing up my phone all night when I was trying to sleep, and then I received word from Sky, the new moderator, that he made a very interesting thread, the one that got me banned.

This thread was like noother I've dealt with before. Ryan had made it with the soul purpose to ruining my name as much as possible. He knew with the leverage this thread could provide against me, a very public WoW account seller, he could get me to give him the login information for the account he couldn't afford. So as any person who would want to protect his name, I gave in and gave him the account information pretty much right away. I wasn't happy about giving in, but in order to protect my name I pretended like we could just move on. Ryan was fine with this, and requested many times before the scammer thread was approved by EpicNPC administration that it be deleted and never viewed by anyone. Sadly I wish the story ended here, but it doesn't.

Despite Ryan never wanting the thread to be viewed by anyone, Mike (aka the admin of EpicNPC) made the sole decision to publish Ryan's lies. Ryan's thread was incredibly one-sided, and heavily edited to make me look like I was taking advantage of him. I'd be lying if I didn't say I wasn't a little impressed with how good of a writer Ryan is. He played the victim card like a pro, and honestly in my nearly six years of doing this, I've never seen anyone do it so well. It was clear to me that anyone who didn't really know me, would easily take his side. From the thread title itself, you could see that it had a pretty clear agenda. I'd like to state again, this thread should have never been published. Not even the original poster wanted it up, it was only made for him to use as extortion.

Mike, the MMOBay administrator, had made it clear before he didn't want me helping anyone with fake ID's anymore. I had stopped helping most people with them, but I'll be honest I still helped my clients with issues that did require them. I really didn't take his warning as seriously as I should have, and now I'm paying the price. One thing that I don't find fair is the fact that every other professional seller has used them at one time or another, and none of them are heeding any consequences. Just because they've never run into a person like Ryan who was smart enough to pull something like this, they are able to continue doing what they do. In fact if you look on page 3, Shane from Khaccounts.net attempts to throw me under the bus saying that I dug my own hole with this, but just a day earlier he was asking me for help with Fake ID's. You can clearly see the hypocrisy going on at EpicNPC from professional sellers, and anyone who replied in that thread was merely attempting to get rid of competition. Anyhow moving on.

I'm not here to justify what I did was right, that's for you to decide. So yes, I did help people recover accounts that were wrongfully stolen from them by using Fake ID's, and I've signed the original owner's name on documents, I've also called into blizzard pretending to be the original owner at least over 200 times. Here's my issue, at least 2/3's of EpicNPC has at one point or another done 1/3 of those things, which could all be placed under common identity theft. The same degree in which I was temp banned for. In fact the entire act of buying or selling a wow account is a legal grey area, however this forum still goes on.

I want to end things by stating that just because something is legal or illegal, doesn't mean that it’s morally right or wrong. Everything I did with those ID's, ultimately was to help people. People who were scammed wrongfully by others, people who ultimately deserved the account. I hope you now understand where I'm coming from on this situation, and that the scammer thread that was made was never supposed to be seen by anyone's eyes. That it was all just a smear campaign, used to extort login information for an account someone couldn’t pay for, but he still wanted to play. A kid who wanted his candy, he cried for it. Its sad that his cries were heard all too well, which ended in a member of nearly six years being banned. When scammers are given days, sometimes weeks to answer, I was only given mere hours.


Closing Edt: -

I might as well add this, since I have been banned, Ryan was smart enough to know that he wouldn't be playing the warlock much longer, since he no longer had any leverage over me, he quickly deleted all of the characters on the $3,000 account to spite me. Though rest assured knowing that your EpicNPC administration has deemed someone like Ryan ***** worthy of being a negative-feedback free user, free to transact with you other legit members on EpicNPC who have slaved years over your flawless reputation as I had. Whereas a six year veteran of the wow account buying and selling community, whose never had one unresolved issue, has been deemed by Mike alone, not “legal” enough, for the legally grey website, known as EpicNPC.
 
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Greetings everyone,

I wanted to add a few thoughts regarding this matter from a non biased buyer's perspective.

I have known and done business with Toonvendor for over 2 years now. Maybe more. Although i have never met him in RL, and have been in contact only via AIM or MSN, he is one of the few people i thoroughly enjoy doing business with. Apart from being professional aqnd completely honest, he is a genuinely good person and is always looking out for his clients and customers. (I have purchased multiple accounts from him in the past)

I actually live accross the world from him so if he were to scam me, the chances of me recovering anything is probably very low. But one thing i do know is that when i do a deal with Toonvendor (john fitch), i know i will not be getting any sleepless nights. Basically, from the day i met him until now, i know he always does things in the best interest of his clients and friends, and nothing more or less. I for one have been scammed multiple times by many different people, and it shows that there are extremely alot of dishonest and cheating scammers out there. Believe me, being burned completely sucks, especially if its more than once, which , is why it brings me to my point. I personally have not used this particular service from Toonvendor, but i would like to give my 2 cents on the matter.

The probability of all users on the forums of being scammers, i would probably say would be close to 70 - 80%. If not more. As buyers of accounts. what kind of protection do we have against scammers? Absolutely nothing. But, what toonvendor was trying to do to his client (Ryan) was to offer him a chance to get back his account after being scammed. John is actually going out of his way to help the victims of scammers and not the other way round. Now, whatever method he uses, to be honest, i couldnt care less, because the fact is for example, i, as a buyer have paid in full, and i have done so in good faith which means the account and all of its properties belongs to me. If the seller retakes it, that is just plain stealing like a common theif on the streets.

The way i see it is this. John (toonvendor) is somewhat of a super hero in my books. Batman particularly comes to mind. He comes and helps the innocent in ways maybe some people might not agree on. He decides to take things into his own hands and correct the wrong, especially since no one else is doing it. But the fact remains, he was only trying to help the community by doing what was necessary to keep the streets (forums) clean. (ie . scammers). And now for his good deeds, he is getting shot for it. What is going on here is that he is being punished for trying to do good, trying to do what others wouldnt do, which is protect the buying community, despite his methods.

Although i know it is only a temporary ban, i strongly feel that he does not deserve this. It is like putting Batman to jail.

Who will clean the mess after he is gone?

Just my 2 cents.

Cheers,

MPSYHK
 
Banned - failed to resolve dispute - http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/566183-Ash - hacking into a member's epicnpc account
To add on:
Re-sellers are like wall street businesses, they ALL engage in unsavory business practices. That said, in my opinion, John (Toonvendor) is the MOST legit, the most helpful and the safest person on this site. Not only does he help the failing community out immensely, but also he does it at his own cost. I met John probably 3 years ago, and since then, I've had over 6 personal transactions, all of which were perfectly executed, and to this day there are still no problems with them. The fact of the matter is that John always puts his clients first. Like the first poster said "I actually live accross the world from him so if he were to scam me, the chances of me recovering anything is probably very low. But one thing i do know is that when i do a deal with Toonvendor (john fitch), i know i will not be getting any sleepless nights. Like the OP said, John was simply helping yet another client with a dicey situation. The client VOLUNTARILY approached him, and asked him for help, and John was obliged to help. To close: as the first poster said, John is indeed a superhero. If you deal with John, you have unparalelled security, and John will literally work day and night for you if you have a problem with account security, which sets him apart from MANY other of the resellers. John is, and always will be, the most legit person on this site.
 
As per request, I've read the situation from both Ryan's and John's PoV of the situation. While here at Epic, all I read on Ryan's thread was just John's name and reputation getting trashed over and over again and seeing KHAccount, who I know for a fact is not just John's business competitor, but a friend; Throw him under the bus to join in on the stoning.

I've never been a direct customer of John, I helped him in a transaction that went bad to make sure that people assured payment to him and to make usre his business stayed healthy as it always has (Making sure payments are done ON TIME, gathering proof of people scamming him). He's acredited me not only with his store, but he acredited me his friendship where I know if my account ever went into jeporady he'd put down what's he's doing to help me get it back to make sure everything is done properly,safetly and as fast as possible.

As Ash said,in this kind of business, there will ALWAYS be unsavory business practices but when it comes down to this business. John was doing the right thing helping Ryan try to recover his account when without John there was a 0% chance of getting it back, at least with the rep John brings to the table it raised that percentage and knowing John he probably didn't stop until it was impossible to recover it. Something that both my colleague and I love about John and why we deal with him instead of any other reseller: John focuses on building a professional business relationship and doesn't just savage your money and that's it. He doesn't just give you a 30 day guarantee, he understands real life sometimes does come into play and offers payment plans,he offers LIFETIME safety for his account. He is absolutely morally correct; I feel John shouldn't have been banned. This website in its entireity isn't really considered 'legal' since it's against the ToU of Blizzard (Which is in no shape or form a 'law system' to be afraid of.), but if people want to talk about things being against rules just remember just signing in on this website makes you just as guilty as the people who buy accounts here.

I feel that John has been wronged here, he shouldn't have been banned temporarily at all.
 
John has committed multiple acts of fraud, forgery and identify theft and has admitted to such in a public forum. The reason he was banned from these forums is so that people did not think that was a good example to follow. You are young, in-experienced and easily misled as is shown by your standing behind someone who is committing felonies over a few $.

The issue is not, was not and will never be about the situation that was brought up but that John was repeatedly committing felony acts. He has made each one of you that he has forged ID's for an accomplice in these actions. You knowingly participated in and then wrote on the internet about your complicity. These felonies have a statute of limitations of 7 years (Not sure on that one contact your lawyer for advice). So for 7 years if any of the people that he forged their signatures or identification find out and complain, or if Blizzard decides to take a hard stance on this themselves and start investigating you will all be in the same boat and you can pat each other on the back then.

There is grey which yes, a lot of the account trading is grey. It is against certain companies EULA agreements, (Which are legally shaky at best and have been overturned in many court cases-precedent has been set over and over), what he is doing is very black and white. One day accounts will be able to be traded by players on the publishers websites. Blizzard has something similar in the works and sony has had the same thing for years. Until then yes, this is grey. But not legally grey. Some people do not want to break the publishers terms of service. That is their choice. There is no law or sanction for doing so.

This is what the grown-ups are telling you. Knock it off, it's not worth it. His obvious lack of concern for his actions and his justifying his actions by blaming his customer to me just furthers the belief that he feels that committing criminal acts are fine-as long as your heart is in the right place. In the real world that does not fly. There is a right way and a wrong way to do things and he chose the wrong way. That is very simply the end of the story.
 
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TGS so you are very open to admit since you've been in this business you have never used a fake ID or anything?

You push this out like it's some unheard of to use a fake ID for anything. I forgot about the million places around the US that make "ID's" for kids so they can get into bars. This has been going on before you were even a sparkle in your dad/mom's eyes. LOL!

And as far as listening to the grown ups... Going on 28 I do understand the grey area of all of this, and I have also watched Mike make decisions that aren't 100% in best interest when it comes to this site. I posted because John has helped me plenty in the past. Hell same with Shane, both are good friends of mine. It cracks me up with any forum that competing vendors do try to get their jabs in as much as they can, when they have done just the same in the past. This isn't just to this community, it's to the LS1 world, Porsche world, etc... Just cracks me up honestly. But what do I know I'm just a little kid who knows nothing about the real world.
 
I am new and unknown and may very well be banned for sharing my opinion.

I am a consumer, I do not sell, I buy, I play WoW, EvE and most other mmo's. Since I joined I have been reading this story and following what was happening. These are my thoughts on the matter ( I may get shot down due to no rep or whatever. You professionals have an opp to see what the consumer thinks if given the choice.)

I wont make a long post. Do I think what John did wasn't legal? ( I am not talking about eula legal, im talking about spending a few years in a prison cell legal.) Yes! it is very illegal and I do not agree with the methods used. Having said that I understand that in the first place the industry behind all this should be legal, the eula should allow the selling of what you acquire during the many hours you spend on these games. What happened here is a forced necessity. I am sure some people take advantage of the system to gain unfair advantage but mainly I can see this as being used to get your money back.

If you pay someone for the account and they recall it and you do some magic to get what you paid for back I cannot disagree with that , that being said, I do not know why Ryan wanted an account recalled or if John bothered to check why. The only point is this became public and a ban was in the best interest of EVERYONE.

To John : You have done a great service to WoW players and I thank you, but you got caught take the temp ban and wise up. You had the power to solve this issue before Ryan took it this far.

To Ryan : I really do not know what to say, IMHO you should be perma banned for what you did. You are the type of person that endangers the whole industry, professional and consumer.

To EpicNpc : I know you did what had to be done, you had NO choice. I would have done the same in your place.

Play hard, Sell and Buy safe. See you ingame!
 
ToonVendor forwarded me some info on Ryan *****which should discredit his post, as John doesn't want that scammer thread ruining his name anymore than it has.


So I did some digging and found that Ryan *****has been banned multiple times before, he's created multiple accounts since the Markee Dragon days, and has created a LOT of issues in the past. Having multiple accounts and coming back from a ban is a bannable offense in itself. His word should NOT be taken in that thread, and those logs were very much edited. Please delete that thread as none of what he says can be trusted.


Links of his old accounts / issues -


http://www.epicnpc.com/scammers/291262-not-exactly-scam-post-but-issue-none-less-about-newt0n.html


http://www.epicnpc.com/scammers/298034-scammerrrr-md%3Dnewt0n-aim%3Dxnewt0nx%3Bmsn%[email protected]


-Chris
 
So, will this site be closed down for a good week so that all members can enjoy a 7 day temp ban. To say anyone on this site (most importantly the big time sellers on this site) have never posed and used someone else's ID to retrieve a recalled account would be lying flat out.

Even members like TGS who is obviously the most honest, most pious, most amazing, most legal abiding person on this site could never, neverever have recalled an account posing as someone else using an ID that is not their own.
Do no try to take the morally high ground when you more than likely have done countless shady things as well just to keep your investments.

Is John a superhero? No.
Has he done many things to help various members of this community? Yes (It was always in a way to benefit himself, but, he did help.)

He did something wrong, there is no denying that, but, giving him such an extreme punishment for something all the big time members, and, every small member does is a horrible way of trying to run this site.


What I find even more disgusting is that you, Mike, had to poll this horrible community on a way to give a verdict in that case.
This is not a community of friends who will give you the best judgement.

Having random members help sway your decision is a very, very poor way of handling this site. You have done many negative things to this site, but this was the most shocking.

This site, and, this community are no better than the other various sites that are known for scamming. Might as well have polled corrupt politicians who want nothing else but to better their position.

This needed to be handled in an entirely different way than in this poor of a manner.
I've never dealt with John, and, I more than likely never will, but to just hurt him and his business in this manner while everyone gets off scot-free is 100 percent ridiculous.



PS:
Little offtopic, but, you must have had a very small amount of Moderator applications, you couldn't have picked any worse mods.
Artemys? Really? Seriously?
Sky? Who is this kid? You give a mod spot to a member who joined 3 months previously who has done nothing for the community except make an account and viewed the ADs that display on the side and threaten members with Penalties.
Heavens forbid that I ever attempt to trade on this site again and have to try and get help from them.

Sid was a good pick and I won't argue with that one.


What happened to everything that was good with this site and community?
 
TGS so you are very open to admit since you've been in this business you have never used a fake ID or anything?

You push this out like it's some unheard of to use a fake ID for anything. I forgot about the million places around the US that make "ID's" for kids so they can get into bars. This has been going on before you were even a sparkle in your dad/mom's eyes. LOL!

And as far as listening to the grown ups... Going on 28 I do understand the grey area of all of this, and I have also watched Mike make decisions that aren't 100% in best interest when it comes to this site. I posted because John has helped me plenty in the past. Hell same with Shane, both are good friends of mine. It cracks me up with any forum that competing vendors do try to get their jabs in as much as they can, when they have done just the same in the past. This isn't just to this community, it's to the LS1 world, Porsche world, etc... Just cracks me up honestly. But what do I know I'm just a little kid who knows nothing about the real world.



No, we have not. Nor have I forged someone's signature on a TOU form, nor have we forwarded ID. Additionally, I have told the people who do do these things that they should not. I have contacted several of the "name change" service people (the ones who forge notaries etc.-not the latest batch) and talked to them about this and why they should not do this.

I'm not taking jabs because they are competition. Quite frankly they aren't. They do things their way I do things my way and those two are very different. Most people here think I'm pretty much an ***. In life I really am not. Here, I have had to be to keep most of the habitual scammers away from us. It's worked quite well. I hate dealing with most of the other people in this market though-it's depressing and I try to shy away from it whenever possible and so having that persona went a long way in keeping that contact to a minimum. I can also tell you that dealing with this and other forum communities is a much higher fraud rate across the board-buying or selling. Dealing with just "customers" from guilds or other sources were never really problematic. These forums were so much different in that regard and why we haven't bought any accounts from members here in quite some time. It just never seemed to go smoothly for any extended periods. We do advertise here but the manner in which we deliver accounts doesn’t really leave a lot of room for “scamming” I believe you have purchased from TGS so you should know first hand.

We have handled large scale volume in this market (200-300 character sales a month consistently) and what I have found as well is that buying these high dollar accounts is a miserable occupation. Those people that have hundreds of days played time are addicts-I know because I was one. They will recall accounts and they will cause problems for you. That's why most of the people who do deal in that particular market have very limited warranties and end up on the forums explaining situations a lot more than we did. Of course we have bought some of them from unknown people who seemed on paper to be pretty good guys/girls and ended up having issues. It's the nature of the beast-which I gotta tell you is quite tiring. Most of the high dollar accounts we have sold though have been flawless transactions due our knowing the people prior to their sale and properly vetting them to make sure there were no issues we didn't know of.

I found a really sweet spot dealing in mid-level/lower cost accounts in higher volume with the same margins and no real issues. If there was an issue I tried to deal with it in the best way possible for the end customer. If I was to continue in this I would have built an interface where people could trade accounts across many games securely and tighten down even further on verification techniques and go more corporate in dealing with fraud. There is no such entity at this time. There are some that try to be like playerauctions or well that's it but their processes are too lax to weed out most of the scams so long term customer relations are not possible.

I can think of 2 specific instances though where we had a large problem. One in 2008 or so when we had 50 or so accounts banned and that cost me around 10k out of pocket to completely fix. I made an announcement about the problem and took it case by case. Sure, people were pissed at that time due to the time it took to get all those forms filled out by third parties and sent in-but when it was over, well those people are still some of our most loyal customers.

Another in 2009 when we had a database compromise and lost a good deal of information-another expensive problem for me. In both instances I informed customers of the situation and dealt with it personally. The database compromise soured me personally a good deal. I took it personally and took a look at the huge liability I had from this website and quite frankly it depressed me that it could all go up in smoke so quickly. I lingered on which in retrospect was a mistake and it has made me a bitter person in reference to this market. It’s all been handled very wrongly by everyone involved. The people who run the majority of business on these forums should have all come together and started really planning for the future and building B&M stores and cleaning it up. I tried to do this but just too many lone wolves that wanna forge ID’s and do back alley deals. So it’ll be the Chinese who win there also-I think vbarrack/toonstorm will be the only ones left after another year or two. They have been buying up and consolidating things across the board and I can’t see how this sort of environment, (One “admin” guy setting the rules for thousands of people) will make it much longer. The fraud here skyrockets and the prices have dropped to the point where...well I mean, is it even worth it to you guys? In the real world though the pricing is just about the same. We listed a lot of great accounts from GC a couple of weeks ago and a lot of them sold privately and the ones we put on the website rolled right on out fairly quickly as well. Another 4/5 of those characters and my obligations there will also be at and end.

At the end of this month however barring any unforeseen circumstances I will walk away from this-cleanly. I have a couple of debts to pay and that it is. Actually, I walked away around 14 months ago or so on the big "business" part but TGS persisted. The people I had working with me did things my way-the right way and this philosophy allowed me to avoid a lot of these larger issues and I am thankful for that and to them for easing the stress that this market brings. It's been real, and at times at it was fun, but I can honestly say it has not been real fun.


P.S. I like John and think his heart is in the right place. My words are to caution him that if the doodoo hits the fan-well dude you'll see the rats scatter leaving you all alone to face the music.
 
No, we have not. Nor have I forged someone's signature on a TOU form, nor have we forwarded ID. Additionally, I have told the people who do do these things that they should not. I have contacted several of the "name change" service people (the ones who forge notaries etc.-not the latest batch) and talked to them about this and why they should not do this.

I'm not taking jabs because they are competition. Quite frankly they aren't. They do things their way I do things my way and those two are very different. Most people here think I'm pretty much an ***. In life I really am not. Here, I have had to be to keep most of the habitual scammers away from us. It's worked quite well. I hate dealing with most of the other people in this market though-it's depressing and I try to shy away from it whenever possible and so having that persona went a long way in keeping that contact to a minimum. I can also tell you that dealing with this and other forum communities is a much higher fraud rate across the board-buying or selling. Dealing with just "customers" from guilds or other sources were never really problematic. These forums were so much different in that regard and why we haven't bought any accounts from members here in quite some time. It just never seemed to go smoothly for any extended periods. We do advertise here but the manner in which we deliver accounts doesn’t really leave a lot of room for “scamming” I believe you have purchased from TGS so you should know first hand.

We have handled large scale volume in this market (200-300 character sales a month consistently) and what I have found as well is that buying these high dollar accounts is a miserable occupation. Those people that have hundreds of days played time are addicts-I know because I was one. They will recall accounts and they will cause problems for you. That's why most of the people who do deal in that particular market have very limited warranties and end up on the forums explaining situations a lot more than we did. Of course we have bought some of them from unknown people who seemed on paper to be pretty good guys/girls and ended up having issues. It's the nature of the beast-which I gotta tell you is quite tiring. Most of the high dollar accounts we have sold though have been flawless transactions due our knowing the people prior to their sale and properly vetting them to make sure there were no issues we didn't know of.

I found a really sweet spot dealing in mid-level/lower cost accounts in higher volume with the same margins and no real issues. If there was an issue I tried to deal with it in the best way possible for the end customer. If I was to continue in this I would have built an interface where people could trade accounts across many games securely and tighten down even further on verification techniques and go more corporate in dealing with fraud. There is no such entity at this time. There are some that try to be like playerauctions or well that's it but their processes are too lax to weed out most of the scams so long term customer relations are not possible.

I can think of 2 specific instances though where we had a large problem. One in 2008 or so when we had 50 or so accounts banned and that cost me around 10k out of pocket to completely fix. I made an announcement about the problem and took it case by case. Sure, people were pissed at that time due to the time it took to get all those forms filled out by third parties and sent in-but when it was over, well those people are still some of our most loyal customers.

Another in 2009 when we had a database compromise and lost a good deal of information-another expensive problem for me. In both instances I informed customers of the situation and dealt with it personally. The database compromise soured me personally a good deal. I took it personally and took a look at the huge liability I had from this website and quite frankly it depressed me that it could all go up in smoke so quickly. I lingered on which in retrospect was a mistake and it has made me a bitter person in reference to this market. It’s all been handled very wrongly by everyone involved. The people who run the majority of business on these forums should have all come together and started really planning for the future and building B&M stores and cleaning it up. I tried to do this but just too many lone wolves that wanna forge ID’s and do back alley deals. So it’ll be the Chinese who win there also-I think vbarrack/toonstorm will be the only ones left after another year or two. They have been buying up and consolidating things across the board and I can’t see how this sort of environment, (One “admin” guy setting the rules for thousands of people) will make it much longer. The fraud here skyrockets and the prices have dropped to the point where...well I mean, is it even worth it to you guys? In the real world though the pricing is just about the same. We listed a lot of great accounts from GC a couple of weeks ago and a lot of them sold privately and the ones we put on the website rolled right on out fairly quickly as well. Another 4/5 of those characters and my obligations there will also be at and end.

At the end of this month however barring any unforeseen circumstances I will walk away from this-cleanly. I have a couple of debts to pay and that it is. Actually, I walked away around 14 months ago or so on the big "business" part but TGS persisted. The people I had working with me did things my way-the right way and this philosophy allowed me to avoid a lot of these larger issues and I am thankful for that and to them for easing the stress that this market brings. It's been real, and at times at it was fun, but I can honestly say it has not been real fun.


P.S. I like John and think his heart is in the right place. My words are to caution him that if the doodoo hits the fan-well dude you'll see the rats scatter leaving you all alone to face the music.


Why do something that can get you in more trouble. Fake ID's are a great way to land in jail. I would agree with TGS, not once in over five years have i EVER been involved with a fake ID, period. It's pure common sense. As far as Blizz policies from what i have seen over the years our business is not a grey area. Blizzard does not recognize the sale/transfer/ or gift of an account to anyone other than the resgistered owner and it ends at that. Anyone who believes in the grey area has ALOT to learn/read up on. Try reading the full TOU start to finish There are (and will be) no legal ramifications because the simple fact that ALL World of warcraft accounts are non-cash value, If someone is DUMB enough to pay for something with no cash value (to which ALL of us are guilty) the more power to HIM.

I've essentially "out" of the reselling business for years besides the exception where i want to take a gamble with 50-100 dollars to see where it goes and have a little fun in the meantime. I sell at even money or slightly less most often now without a care.

"NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT YOU SHALL HAVE NO OWNERSHIP OR OTHER PROPERTY INTEREST IN THE ACCOUNT, AND YOU FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL RIGHTS IN AND TO THE ACCOUNT ARE AND SHALL FOREVER BE OWNED BY AND INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF BLIZZARD"

Its property of blizzard, we dont have property interest, we are just selling to all customers "our invested time" ;)

my 2c

-J.P.

---------- Post added 05-07-2012 at 09:12 PM ----------


TL: DR [video=youtube;AR2qxkDkaBY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR2qxkDkaBY[/video]
 
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PS: Little offtopic, but, you must have had a very small amount of Moderator applications, you couldn't have picked any worse mods.
Artemys? Really? Seriously?
Sky? Who is this kid? You give a mod spot to a member who joined 3 months previously who has done nothing for the community except make an account and viewed the ADs that display on the side and threaten members with Penalties.
Heavens forbid that I ever attempt to trade on this site again and have to try and get help from them.

Sid was a good pick and I won't argue with that one.


What happened to everything that was good with this site and community?
Did I get picked, no. Mike needs help running the forums with the mods to help during off peak-hours and times hes not available. It's not a one man show. Some of the best have had to step down to real life issues, EPICNPC is not our lives, sure its fun but if it's your life then its pretty sad.

PPS: Did i apply?????
























































No.

TL: DR
[video=youtube;zU88p-rHSEc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU88p-rHSEc[/video]
 
So I did some digging and found that Ryan *****has been banned multiple times before, he's created multiple accounts since the Markee Dragon days, and has created a LOT of issues in the past. Having multiple accounts and coming back from a ban is a bannable offense in itself. His word should NOT be taken in that thread, and those logs were very much edited. Please delete that thread as none of what he says can be trusted.

Links of his old accounts / issues -

Not exactly a scam post, but an issue none the less. About newt0n.

http://www.epicnpc.com/scammers/298034-scammerrrr-md%3Dnewt0n-aim%3Dxnewt0nx%3Bmsn%[email protected]

Just to reply to this, yes, newt0n = rmnesbitt. In both of those threads, it seems the issue was resolved and the account was never banned. newt0n was never re-activated after MD moved and remains inactive. I've now closed that account so there is no chance of him re-activating it.
 
Banned - You may not threaten this site or it's staff/users.
Selling, trading, and recalling wow accounts is a grey area.

Creating fake ID's with the intent to impersonate someone is A FELONY, and is clearly against the law... no grey area there.

I have never spoken with toonvendor and he genuinely seems like a very nice, legit person who goes out of his way to help people. This is nothing personal.
I have also read a lot of scam threads and can say that I don't always agree 100% with the outcome - but that's really no ones business to judge.
Put yourself in Mike's shoes and try dealing with a bunch of retards calling each other liars and figuring that **** out... multiple times a day!

I'm not throwing you under the bus but in my perspective it really looks like you dug yourself a nice fat one. If you gave the guy account information BEFORE he paid 30% - you just violated your own policies and basically voided them. I believe he is entitled to a refund at that point. I'm going to have to side with Mike on this. A professional business would never agree to give a $3000 item to someone who has not paid the down payment.

Sad, but always true: "Nice guys finish last."

It's a really unfortunate situation and I feel bad for you toonvendor, but you should really stick to your policies if you plan to take some guy's money based on them. And please, for the love of god stop committing crimes by faking ID's and then ADMITTING TO IT ON A PUBLIC FORUM. Think of a possible disgruntled customer calling the FBI on your ***, that's prison time bud. You really just admitted to spending HOURS on the phone impersonating someone else and sending in fake IDs... think about it.

Just my two and a half cents

P.S. There is a difference between using an image of someone's ID THEY provided to you to attempt a recovery and FABRICATING ONE IN PHOTOSHOP which is pretty much on the level of trying to photoshop a $100 bill and print it out...
 
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Ryan Nesbitt has purchased 4 accounts from TGS starting 12/21/2008. I had one conversation with him 5 years ago which led to 4 flawless sales with zero complaints on either side. Wonder how he feels about going elsewhere now?

Grey Seyfried also has been our customer multiple times-and his brother, again with no issues and flawless transactions for both parties. Hell, he's been our poster boy:


feedback.png



 
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Banned - You may not threaten this site or it's staff/users.
Love when people toot their own horn on the way out... classy bro

I don't understand why you specifically put Mike under a black light when it's the people who commit crimes and not him.

I would like to see you try running this website before throwing the guy under the bus. Jesus...

"Management sponsoring fraud." - a citation is needed here, otherwise it's called slander

Don't hit your *** on the way out
 
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Hmm, how are we supporting people who commit fraud/criminal activity?
 
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Love when people toot their own horn on the way out... classy bro

I don't understand why you specifically put Mike under a black light when it's the people who commit crimes and not him.

I would like to see you try running this website before throwing the guy under the bus. Jesus...

"Management sponsoring fraud." - a citation is needed here, otherwise it's called slander

Don't hit your *** on the way out



Don't hit your *** on the way out? Ok. Anyways, I wasn't tooting any horn just pointing out the massive failure we have involved ourselves with. Myself included. The other part was just pointing out how nastily some people treat good customers.

There's many cases where Mike talks about some seller filling out and sending in forms to Blizzard-forgery, throughout the site. That is a minor detail at this point that simply gives us a look at the mentality of the whole thing. I said my piece, nobody cares-again the problem, just in case anyone is missing it.

EDIT: Let me put this another way since it has become so commonplace to forge someone's signature on a TOU Form and send in their (SOMEONE ELSE"S NOT YOURS) photo ID along with it. It's an accepted practice by almost everyone here. Let me once again point out the glaringly obvious fact of this is forgery. This is illegal. This is not something you want to be questioned about. Just because everyone else on EPICNPC is doing it means nothing. It's criminal.
 
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Banned - You may not threaten this site or it's staff/users.
What you're saying is heresay unless you can backup your statements. If you're really that upset about this situation go do some research and backup your statements.

From what I've seen the majority of the forged forms are being sent in by pro sellers like yourself.

Due to the tolerence of forgery and criminal activity by the management staff of Epicnpc.com we will no longer utilize, support, advertise or in any manner affiliate ourselves with Epicnpc.com

Well you should close your account then. Simply having your account open is both advertising and affiliating yourself with this site. Put your money where your mouth is.

It's annoying how much the pro sellers think they are exempt from bans and feel like they can treat their customers based on their policies, violate said policies, and then ask mike to defend them based on the policies which they abused. It's absurd, dirty business, and frankly immature.

"Massive failure" lol sure... why are you still here then? All I see is six different types of bullsh*t coming out of your mouth like my girlfriend trying to argue on her period.
 
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What you're saying is heresay unless you can backup your statements. If you're really that upset about this situation go do some research and backup your statements.

From what I've seen the majority of the forged forms are being sent in by pro sellers like yourself.



Well you should close your account then. Simply having your account open is both advertising and affiliating yourself with this site. Put your money where your mouth is.

It's annoying how much the pro sellers think they are exempt from bans and feel like they can treat their customers based on their policies, violate said policies, and then ask mike to defend them based on the policies which they abused. It's absurd, dirty business, and frankly immature.

"Massive failure" lol sure... why are you still here then? All I see is six different types of bullsh*t coming out of your mouth like my girlfriend trying to argue on her period.


You are literally making my points for me. There's no need to research it though it's all over these forums with the staff talking about these sellers sending in forms they know to not be filled out by the correct person, (whose name is being signed and whose ID is being transmitted) my whole point is that this has become such a common activity that it is just glossed over with no regard or thought to what is actually going on. I really don't appreciate being lumped in with this activity in your statements but again, that is exactly the point I am trying to make. The long term people here know that they are going to get **** on if a deal goes bad with these professional sellers.

I have already put in the request to cancel any recurring subscriptions and close my account. I have never been scared to put my money where my mouth is as you say. This has gotten so distasteful and I simply no longer want any part of it. The stigma that has become attached to this is horrible.

I don't really think your colorful insults were necessary as I/we have always done what we said we would. It's my philosophy in life and there's no reason to stray from a core belief for any one transaction. Sometimes I can be harried, rude, obnoxious, or whatever else you'd like to call me-but you'll get a fair shake. Anyways, it doesn't matter. As long as there is a nickel to be exploited by some people it will be. It's been real, and at times it's been fun-but I can honestly say it hasn't been real fun.
 
Banned - failed to resolve scam thread - http://www.epicnpc.com/active-disputes/463935-seller-did-not-deliver-eccentric-penguin.html
If you want no part of it then leave. Nobody is holding a gun to your head making you continue to log in. We all know you won't leave though because your business will tank.
 
Banned - You may not threaten this site or it's staff/users.
The simple fact you keep coming back in this thread to defend yourself and toot your horn shows a certain level of immaturity if you truly are 100% legit and have never done anything illegal on this site. What's your point your trying to make other than obviously trying to smear an innocent staff out of spite? Sure the staff "talks about" illegal activity going on: they don't like it and have stated multiple times it is not supported on this site. GG - love how you backed up your slanderous remarks with nothing but more heresay.

I think it's interesting how you threw "I/we" in that last paragraph... *cough* conspiracy *cough*
 
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Got news for all you dumbasses, even the act of forwarding a government ID to Blizzard that the SELLER WILLINGLY GAVE YOU is a crime. You don't have to forge it. It's not yours; you can't use it for any purpose AT ALL.

Stop splitting hairs. It's either all wrong or all acceptable. My humble opinion.
 
Got news for all you dumbasses, even the act of forwarding a government ID to Blizzard that the SELLER WILLINGLY GAVE YOU is a crime. You don't have to forge it. It's not yours; you can't use it for any purpose AT ALL.

Stop splitting hairs. It's either all wrong or all acceptable. My humble opinion.

The Plot thickens!
 
It's funny to see people argue over this.

A few quick blurbs.

I've never used anyone else's ID to get an account back. And I've been doing this longer than 99% of you. I've lost countless accounts. Price you pay for doing something you shouldn't. So, I wouldn't get a 7 day ban.

Second, be broke a law. Not a rule, but a law. He's gone. He won't be coming back before his ban is up, so talking about it really doesn't matter that much. If it makes you all feel better, knock yourselves out, but don't expect anyone to change their minds to your opinion.

Finally, refer again to my last sentence. No one is going to change their minds and be swayed by your brilliant insults and other things, so just stop.
 
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