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Discussion of banning scammers vs. allowing them to keep their accounts.

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I have a question for all of our members and I would like to discuss this. The question is: Do we ban scammers? Yes or no.

I know it is a simple question and you may have a very clear way you want to go. Let me make a couple of points on both sides and then I would like to see what you have to say.

<span style="font-weight: bold">YES ban them</span>
[*] Banning scammers gets rid of them.
[*] Banning them shows that the Admins care and want the forums to be safer.
[*] Banning them makes us feel better because we have now punished them.

<span style="font-weight: bold">NO don't ban them</span>
[*] Not banning scammers allows us to keep track of them.
[*] Not banning scammers allows the scammers to continue using the same account. Thus we don't have to figure out which ones of the 100 new accounts daily is the banned scammer coming back.
[*] Not banning scammers puts more pressure on the feedback system and requires members to check peoples feedback. This is as opposed to banning them where they have zero feedback.

I could say a lot more here. I do have an opinion but I will wait to fully say what it is. Please be creative here and help us figure out which is best overall regardless of emotions. What way is safer?
 
i guess my first question would be, if you dont ban scammers, what is bannable anymore? what is allowed around here?

does it become no rules basically?
 
Banned - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/365274-md-nomorecow-aim-nomorecow4me-alive-3.html#post2178361
Yes, ban them.

If you don't ban them and they start getting negative feedback left, whats stopping them from making a new account anyway? Also, lets say I was to scam. I now have 14 positives and 1 negative. I'm sure I can justify the negative to a lot of people if I really tried. At the end of the day, my positives will outweigh my negative.

When you ban a scammer you force them to start all over, with nothing. The smart MD users will NOT trade with somebody who just registered and has only a couple of posts.

Not banning them in my eyes should not even be considered, it's like saying every time somebody commits a crime, don't send them to jail, just give them a small tattoo in a non visible place.


Edit: Why not start IP banning users? This is the first board I've been a member on that does not IP ban. If you did this, then you have no worries about them coming back with a new user name. This would force them to resolve the issue if they wanted to be part of the site again.

Give people a chance to resolve their issues, but until they do, keep them off MD.
 
lol exactly, make it as hard as you can for scammers

plus not banning scammers opens a can of worms that i do not think anyone on this site wants to deal with whatsoever. stop and think about that for a minute
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TRIPLESINNER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i guess my first question would be, if you dont ban scammers, what is bannable anymore? what is allowed around here?

does it become no rules basically? </div></div>

Well the rules would stay the same. You may not know this but we do not have a rule that says scammers are to be banned.
 
Hi Marcus,

My name is John and here are my opinions,

When you start talking about banning people that raises a differnet question in regards to feedback. You have vaild points for your yes's and no's, but beside the scammers there are bigger issues at hand.

Yes the scammers have to get banned, its the only way to teach them a lesson. Its like getting a DUI, if you blow more than .08 or whatever it is in your state, is the law going to let you go? I highly doubt it.

When you talk about scammers it is more in regards to theft/deception. If someone scams should you ban them. I think the title scammer says it all, but if they are not going to get banned, more verifications and other steps need to be put in place so they are not having multiple accounts. Regardless if tehy are going to get banned or not

In regards to feedback i think at this point it is flawed in the sense that rep threads dont guarantee anything and neither does feedback. Talking about a rep let's take mine for example 0 negative 0 neutral and 15 positive may look good, but when those numbers are based showing off of unique TWV instead of overall transactions, you cant be sure. What if a user didnt know how to click and check into ratings further. For all anyone could know i could have non twv rep that is negative saying that my transactions went bad, it can be misleading. When people QQ about not dealing with non-repped people that can be tough because that does force people to make deals with TWV just to show a green or whatever for their reputation, i think that system needs to be changed to overall transaction. When your doing transactions on EBAY, honestly how many sellers are not 100% positive,tons. That type of feedback is not nesecarilly in relation to scamming, but now and then on ebay you are going to have some unhappy customers, and when you deal with ebay and other sites, your reputation isnt split into whether you bought from repped and non-repped or even powersellers. It is straight up and you get a number assigned.

This community is to anal and set on having unlimited positive rep and the second a neutral shows up people begin to second guess theirselves and the second a red negative shows up people just stay away, people QQ too much about rep, in regards to this community i think things need to change here also, im not saying having all greens is bad or not wanted, but im sure there are many, many instances where green reps may not be the true outcome of some transactions.

In regards to scamming, WOW USA Buy sells and TRADES are probably the biggest issue in scamming today. I think more implements need to be taken on trades to ensure the trades are safe. I get people coming to me and asking advice every day and far too often i see, i traded this guy my warrior 2 weeks ago for his druid and now the druid is banned or the druid is recalled what should i do.??? should i just recall my warrior etc etc.

Or this situation comes along
User 1: Hi! i have a warlock that i WTT and i am looking for a mage.
User 2: Hi! i have a mage lets trade
User 1: My account name is XXX and my pw is XXX
User 2: MY account name is XXX and my pw is XXX
User 1: I can't sign on
User 2: Psyche, bye!

Im not saying that middlemen would be a solution to trades but people need to get smarter about giving away their account information. A great addition to this site for trades in my eyes would be trade advisors that are NOT MIDDLEMEN and NOT PAID, but people of a higher status that would be able to look over both parties trades and come to an full knowledgeable agreement that both parties can stand by and agree on when trading an account including the full ramifications of scamming and recalling accounts and what to have a plan in case blizzard decides to throw the banhammer. People need to have a better plan of action then, [censored] i just got scammed. This is a market that blizzard never ever intended to happen and im not saying i dont enjoy being a member of this market but think of stuff like this in blizzard's eyes, they charge x amount of money to start an account and x amount per month for users to play. They never intended for people to have to go outside of blizzard entertainment and PAY someone else to bot, level, get money, or straight up just buy or trade an account. And then when people do and things go down and blizzard has to throw down the banhammer to protect their better interests, who still looks like the bad guy, blizzard. When in all reality it is both parties the buyer and the seller, this black market is blizzard's worst marketing nightmare. Im not pointing this site out in particular but there are thousands. If someone ends up getting screwed over what is their opinion going to be about blizzard anyways, they most often may go find another game to play.

MY HONEST OPINION IS THAT: I think bans here need to go out to protect (like blizzard) the MarkeeDragon Community's better interests.

Onto other problems in regards to getting scammed as well i think there is a certain point of maturity that goes into scamming. Just for a minute picture your ideal scammer's age and then look to the next paragraph.

When i think about scammers i generally think of someone is younger between the ages of 13-17 mabye even 18,19 or 20. People really under the age of 18 may not be fully aware of what they are trading and the rules and REAL-WORLD repurcussions that go along with trading or selling an account, let alone the value of a dollar. Someone that is 13, 14, 15, 16 or even 17 are still growing up. Hell a majority of the time people under 20 aren't nescarily fully mature yet. Im not saying this should happen but a recuction to scams could come about with an change in the age restriction to 18 for this website. Even though that may not be fully enforcable in my eyes it would be a great deterrent.

Also Marcus, have you ever though about a small yearly subscription. Not a miniscule amount but probably not more than five to ten dollars either. This would be a great deterrent to scammers and along with TWV show the seriousness about being a member here at markeedragon.

Trolling is a serious problem. Non members or people not logged in with a registered account should have NO ACCESS to any forums at all. Too many times i have people contact me that never post nor are they even registered identifiable members of MD. Scammers live off of being anonymous, so lets make anonymous impossible to get. Ban the scammers.

Age restriction,feedback, Trade Advisors, account verifications, no trolls, and ban-hammers

Thanks for your considerations Marcus. My two cents

-J_P_Devil
 
Last edited by a moderator:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoMoreCow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, ban them.

If you don't ban them and they start getting negative feedback left, whats stopping them from making a new account anyway? Also, lets say I was to scam. I now have 14 positives and 1 negative. I'm sure I can justify the negative to a lot of people if I really tried. At the end of the day, my positives will outweigh my negative.

When you ban a scammer you force them to start all over, with nothing. The smart MD users will NOT trade with somebody who just registered and has only a couple of posts.

Not banning them in my eyes should not even be considered, it's like saying every time somebody commits a crime, don't send them to jail, just give them a small tattoo in a non visible place.


Edit: Why not start IP banning users? This is the first board I've been a member on that does not IP ban. If you did this, then you have no worries about them coming back with a new user name. This would force them to resolve the issue if they wanted to be part of the site again.

Give people a chance to resolve their issues, but until they do, keep them off MD. </div></div>

Nothing is stopping them from making a new account. But human nature is that many of the scammers that are not as smart will continue to use the same account anyway even though when we look at it we see that they have a very bad reputation.

As for the smart traders not trading with someone who has just registered. These are the same smart members who would also see the bad reputation they have if they continue to use the same account.

The dumb or lazy members (yes we have some) would ignore them being new and also ignore bad feedback to do a deal out of greed or the need for instant gratification.

You also talk about criminals not going to jail and just getting a small non visible tattoo being the same as banning. I disagree. Scammers in the forums have the ability to make a new account. Criminals on their way to jail do not have this ability to get a new body and life. I think this may not be a very good analogy for the subject. But I will say that the more negative feedback members give to a scammer the bigger their tattoo is.

As for IP banning. Ever hear of proxies? How about dynamic IPs? Very few of our scammers use a static IP. If everyone had a static IP this would be an awesome solution.. also we have looked into blocking all proxies. The problem with blocking them is that for one. I can make a proxy in just a few minutes and use it. Also if we block them as a policy we would then be blocking all AOL users. There are a lot of other people that use them legitimately.



I have another question to add. Who should be the judge and jury for all of the transactions that happen here in the forums? Is that the community? Forum admins? Who?
 
Banned - failed to resolve - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/894043-Account-recalled-by-SpartanMD/page2
As much as I would like to agree with NMC and Sinner, I do have to say the points brought up about keeping them on the site are very true. It is a very confusing issue to decide between one, as both sides have very many good points.

I am not very educated on proxies and stuff of that sort, but through my years on the internet, and on MD, I have learned proxies really make the whole ban system pointless. Yes, if they use a new IP to create a new account, they have to start from nothing. But I have seen hundreds scammed throughout my time on this site because of previous scammers using new accounts. This has happened on alot of forums I have gone to, including an old private server I once played on, where hackers would just resort to using proxies to make new accounts.

Not banning someone however will, like Marcus said, make it somewhat easier to track them. But their is still flaws. Like NMC said, if they have alot of positive rep, it will out-weigh any type of negative. But the thing is, If MD stopped banning scammers, I think they would consider using a different system than something as simple as a negative.

Making a decision is very tough, but I would have to say, continue banning them UNLESS there is a better system to "flagging them" than giving them a negative. Maybe restrict how many times they can post, have "Previous Scammer" under their name in red. But still, as much as I would like to go with that system, if they receive that sort of flag on their account, they are going to remake a new account...

Now, if I had a say in this, which i guess my opinions are read and discussed and possibly even considered, I would say requiring TWV for trades would solve ALOT of the issues. But then again, it would also leave these forums dead.
 
mmm yeah looking over the rules, there are a ton of things, that i think people assume incorrectly can get you banned.

personally i think the whole system needs a huge overhaul if it is to survive. there are too many loopholes, backdoor dealings alleged, and abuse of privilages/power/rep.
 
You ban a scammer, they make a new account and come right back. Its up to a person to check peoples feedback. Run a search on them, if your not able to do that, then theres no reason for you to be trading accounts. Its your account, its your responsibility. You lose it because you were lazy and just randomly trust people on the internet then thats your own fault.
 
Banned - failed to resolve - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/894043-Account-recalled-by-SpartanMD/page2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">\ Who should be the judge and jury for all of the transactions that happen here in the forums? Is that the community? Forum admins? Who? </div></div>

That is a very tough issue in itself, but I do not think 1 mod should ultimately decide the outcome of a user. Sure, there are obvious scams that go on that get members banned. But then, there are controversial issues that occur, and no matter how important or long we have been on the forums, our say means nothing. I am not saying the community should decide, but it really is unjust for one moderator/admin on these forums to be the judge, as I don't believe any of them have ever dealt with anything pertaining to court or criminal justice. A lot of people are expecting there to be some sort of flawless system. But the fact is, issues like this are always going to occur. We just need to find a system to reduce the amount of times they do occur.
 
Banned - failed to resolve - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/894043-Account-recalled-by-SpartanMD/page2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Citation</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You ban a scammer, they make a new account and come right back. Its up to a person to check peoples feedback. Run a search on them, if your not able to do that, then theres no reason for you to be trading accounts. Its your account, its your responsibility. You lose it because you were lazy and just randomly trust people on the internet then thats your own fault. </div></div>

Sometimes it is beyond someones ability to track and sniff out scammers. If someone never revealed their address, full name, or phone number before scamming, then simply ran a proxy to create a new account, made a completely different aim, or even resorted to a whole seperate messaging system (msn, icq, etc), there isn't really much an average, or even professional trader can do to track them.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpartanMD</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">\ Who should be the judge and jury for all of the transactions that happen here in the forums? Is that the community? Forum admins? Who? </div></div>

That is a very tough issue in itself, but I do not think 1 mod should ultimately decide the outcome of a user. Sure, there are obvious scams that go on that get members banned. But then, there are controversial issues that occur, and no matter how important or long we have been on the forums, our say means nothing. I am not saying the community should decide, but it really is unjust for one moderator/admin on these forums to be the judge, as I don't believe any of them have ever dealt with anything pertaining to court or criminal justice. A lot of people are expecting there to be some sort of flawless system. But the fact is, issues like this are always going to occur. We just need to find a system to reduce the amount of times they do occur. </div></div> How about we use the Six Sigma program for MarkeeDragon. Problem Solved. LOL
 
J_P_Devil, When you mention that more accurate verification is needed of members and mention how eBay works. eBay works much better than the forums because they operate it as a business and they charge for their services. We could do the same. We could require a TWV for every member. But then I believe we would also kill the open nature of our community. We want it to be free for anyone to use. eBay is a closed community and they charge for every transaction.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or this situation comes along
User 1: Hi! i have a warlock that i WTT and i am looking for a mage.
User 2: Hi! i have a mage lets trade
User 1: My account name is XXX and my pw is XXX
User 2: MY account name is XXX and my pw is XXX
User 1: I can't sign on
User 2: Psyche, bye!</div></div>

That is a good example of a scam. But as to if we can stop scams from happening here? No. Only the game publisher can do this and we need to request a legit transfer service for accounts. The game publishers hold all of the cards on this. A good example is Ultima Online. They have a transfer service that eliminates all scams if the service is used. The ones getting scammed in account transfers for UO are the ones not willing to pony up the $25 cost of the service.

This leads into the idea of middlemen. We have entertained this for years. We previously did it. But when games came along that refused to put in any tools for safe transfers and started allowing recalls we could not longer offer this service. At best we could do some sort of insurance. but then when a recall happens. How would an insurance company verify it happened without the support of the game publisher? The insurer at this point starts to get scammed.

As for advisers. This is an interesting idea. If people would be willing to pay for this service I know it could be built and staffed with experienced anti-fraud reps. I like it and will explore it.

The fee for using the site is just about the same thing as paying for TWV and getting access to the TWV only forum.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Trolling is a serious problem. Non members or people not logged in with a registered account should have NO ACCESS to any forums at all. Too many times i have people contact me that never post nor are they even registered identifiable members of MD. Scammers live off of being anonymous, so lets make anonymous impossible to get. Ban the scammers.</div></div>

I would love to do this. BUT. And this is a big but.... If we close the view of the forums we lose the ability for Google and other search engines to direct new members to us. Search Engines make up 85% of our new memberships. If we cut that down to only 15% of the current new members the site would die. It is required for the health of the site that we attract new members.

Thanks for all of the good opinions you shared.
Also. What is QQ?
 
QQ = Cry (the bottom of the Q resembles a tear!)

That is all I can add to this debate!
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpartanMD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

That is a very tough issue in itself, but I do not think 1 mod should ultimately decide the outcome of a user. Sure, there are obvious scams that go on that get members banned. But then, there are controversial issues that occur, and no matter how important or long we have been on the forums, our say means nothing. I am not saying the community should decide, but it really is unjust for one moderator/admin on these forums to be the judge, as I don't believe any of them have ever dealt with anything pertaining to court or criminal justice. A lot of people are expecting there to be some sort of flawless system. But the fact is, issues like this are always going to occur. We just need to find a system to reduce the amount of times they do occur. </div></div>

I think you see the quandary we have here. It's up to volunteers or paid staff to do this right now. I do not believe that it is our job to do this. As it is done right now it costs the site money or volunteer time to do this. Since the forums are free any funds for this come from what the site earns. If we charged for transactions I would be more than happy to provide staff to do this that would be held accountable to do good work. But currently there is no budget for it. So it happens in the extra time causing important subjects and facts to not get the attention that they deserve.
 
well for starters, mods and admins need to be 100% neutral in their dealings with MD, and the judgements they make/hand down. i would first off suggest not allowing any mod/admin to sell services/items or other wise use their status as such for any type of financial gain. this is a problem that is ongoing here, and has been brought up a time or two.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J_P_Devil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> How about we use the Six Sigma program for MarkeeDragon. Problem Solved. LOL </div></div>

Ace Logan I believe is high level Six Sigma. It's an interesting idea. This is a very high level concept though. The higher the complexity the more it will cost to make it successful. I'm not sure how to get around that.

I am trained in another problem solving method that is similar. Given the resources I know I could solve the problems. But given the budgets to work with. Sheesh.... That's one thing I have not been able to get around. If we could resolve that I would put 100% in. Since funding is where I always get blocked at I have been working on that issue for years.

In years past we have gone through 100k a year. This year we will chew up somewhere around 60k for the support and development of MD. I figure we need around 250k+ to complete a project to resolve the issue of scammers. So if anyone has a great idea in that area they can share it.
 
Banned - failed to resolve - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/894043-Account-recalled-by-SpartanMD/page2
Scams that occur in the account selling/buying forums, are generally because the sites that we pay through such as Paypal, do not go along with the selling/buying of virtual goods.

Scams that occur in the account trading forums are generally because someone is required to go first, but the other runs off with the info. Middlemans solve that, but due to recalling issues, there isn't a guaranteed safety. Another common "scam" issue, is when chain trades occur. Either one of the accounts in the chain gets permanently locked, or the previous owner traded an account he himself did not have the full information to.

All of that being said, most of the scams occur due to someone talking outside of the site, and away from advice that can otherwise wake them up to how obvious the scam thats about to happen is. Most members disregard the stickied posts on safe trading/buying/selling. This is usually due to one being mesmerized by how amazing an account is, and puts aside how obvious the scam is.

I really think requiring a trade/buy/sell to have the ID of the original owner would help lower the scam rate. This would generally scare alot of scammers away, and prevent recalls for the most part. Like always, there are ways to get around it, and ways to still scam, but there will never be a solution to stop all scamming to cease to exist.
 
Banned - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/365274-md-nomorecow-aim-nomorecow4me-alive-3.html#post2178361
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoMoreCow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, ban them.

If you don't ban them and they start getting negative feedback left, whats stopping them from making a new account anyway? Also, lets say I was to scam. I now have 14 positives and 1 negative. I'm sure I can justify the negative to a lot of people if I really tried. At the end of the day, my positives will outweigh my negative.

When you ban a scammer you force them to start all over, with nothing. The smart MD users will NOT trade with somebody who just registered and has only a couple of posts.

Not banning them in my eyes should not even be considered, it's like saying every time somebody commits a crime, don't send them to jail, just give them a small tattoo in a non visible place.


Edit: Why not start IP banning users? This is the first board I've been a member on that does not IP ban. If you did this, then you have no worries about them coming back with a new user name. This would force them to resolve the issue if they wanted to be part of the site again.

Give people a chance to resolve their issues, but until they do, keep them off MD. </div></div>

Nothing is stopping them from making a new account. But human nature is that many of the scammers that are not as smart will continue to use the same account anyway even though when we look at it we see that they have a very bad reputation.

As for the smart traders not trading with someone who has just registered. These are the same smart members who would also see the bad reputation they have if they continue to use the same account.

The dumb or lazy members (yes we have some) would ignore them being new and also ignore bad feedback to do a deal out of greed or the need for instant gratification.

You also talk about criminals not going to jail and just getting a small non visible tattoo being the same as banning. I disagree. Scammers in the forums have the ability to make a new account. Criminals on their way to jail do not have this ability to get a new body and life. I think this may not be a very good analogy for the subject. But I will say that the more negative feedback members give to a scammer the bigger their tattoo is.

As for IP banning. Ever hear of proxies? How about dynamic IPs? Very few of our scammers use a static IP. If everyone had a static IP this would be an awesome solution.. also we have looked into blocking all proxies. The problem with blocking them is that for one. I can make a proxy in just a few minutes and use it. Also if we block them as a policy we would then be blocking all AOL users. There are a lot of other people that use them legitimately.



I have another question to add. Who should be the judge and jury for all of the transactions that happen here in the forums? Is that the community? Forum admins? Who? </div></div>


I think the admin/mod staff should be the jury for it. They have a unbiased opinion and 99% of the time they make the right decision when they chose to ban a scammer.
As for the whole smart and dumb users comment, it will make no difference if you ban them or not if you think of it that way. If somebody is dumb enough to trade with somebody who just registered, they will be dumb enough to trade with somebody with negative fedback.

As for their negatives growing, they would create a new account if it got bad enough to where it was stopping people from doing business with them.

I was just faced with this a couple of days ago. I was approached by a member who claimed a account I sold him over a year ago got recalled. I started to dig up information on him because I could not recall the transaction. His old account had a negative rating from somebody and he just made a new MD account because of that negative, thats why I could not recall him.

As for the proxies/ip deal, there is a "easy" solution for this. Most of the time that people use proxies it will show them as being in different locations every time they relog. If you see people's location bouncing around constantly, warn them and then ban them. This will prevent some scammers.

As for the criminal comment, I see your point but try to understand mine. Lets try to look at it like this, brace yourself, new analogy coming up.

If a person has a high credit score they are very likely to get approved for any loan of their choice. If they fail to pay a bill, their score drops and they now have a negative mark on their report. That same person can still go out and get a loan if their history prior to that was good.

On the same token, if a person does not pay a bill and you wipe their entire credit history, they have to start from scratch, which will be a lot tougher.

I can see that you feel like banning is the wrong thing to do, but I respectfully disagree with you there.



Edit: I just read your funding comments. If somebody volunteers to do something, they should stick to it. I understand they all have lives so you cant expect everything to get solved right away, but it should eventually.

To help funding, why dont you open up a donation service? There is a lot of money that that runs throughout MD and all the transactions, I'm sure a lot of people have made some decent change because of this site and wouldnt mind tossing a few bucks your way.

Another idea would be a paid subscriber service. Have various levels of it. For example, a person can sign up and pay 10 bucks per month and he gets this tag in return. You could also make one for 20 bucks a month that allows access to certain features and such. 90% of the community here already pays 15 bucks a month for 1 WoW account (with a lot of us having multiples), I wouldnt mind paying a few bucks each month to support this website.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: J_P_Devil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> How about we use the Six Sigma program for MarkeeDragon. Problem Solved. LOL </div></div>

Ace Logan I believe is high level Six Sigma. It's an interesting idea. This is a very high level concept though. The higher the complexity the more it will cost to make it successful. I'm not sure how to get around that.

I am trained in another problem solving method that is similar. Given the resources I know I could solve the problems. But given the budgets to work with. Sheesh.... That's one thing I have not been able to get around. If we could resolve that I would put 100% in. Since funding is where I always get blocked at I have been working on that issue for years.

In years past we have gone through 100k a year. This year we will chew up somewhere around 60k for the support and development of MD. I figure we need around 250k+ to complete a project to resolve the issue of scammers. So if anyone has a great idea in that area they can share it. </div></div>
We should all pitch in and mass buy mega-millions lottery tickets
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TRIPLESINNER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well for starters, mods and admins need to be 100% neutral in their dealings with MD, and the judgements they make/hand down. i would first off suggest not allowing any mod/admin to sell services/items or other wise use their status as such for any type of financial gain. this is a problem that is ongoing here, and has been brought up a time or two. </div></div>

I think it's an excellent idea. How do we go about finding these volunteers that are not here as traders?
 
lol didnt say traders, i said sellers. people that have a business of sorts on these forums should not be allowed to be a mod.


look at it this way, i offer powerleveling. viper offers arena services. if one of use were mods and had to ban a competitor, how does that make the site look?

or if i start locking threads of competitors? it isn't right, but it goes on. these actions make people distrust several mods because of it.

if a person wants to be a mod here, they have to give up the right to sell items. period. does not mean they can not buy them, or trade their accounts. but making a profit off of their status as a mod is bad all around.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SpartanMD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I really think requiring a trade/buy/sell to have the ID of the original owner would help lower the scam rate. </div></div>

OUCH! Trade your safety on an account for the risk of identity theft of the original owner. We have already seen at least one organized crime group that has been using one or more sites that are buying accounts and requiring ID like this that has been abusing it. It's very dangerous to send ID to one of these sites or an individual. This is part of why we created TWV. so that you can share certain info without exposing yourself.
 
Banned - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/365274-md-nomorecow-aim-nomorecow4me-alive-3.html#post2178361
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TRIPLESINNER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">well for starters, mods and admins need to be 100% neutral in their dealings with MD, and the judgements they make/hand down. i would first off suggest not allowing any mod/admin to sell services/items or other wise use their status as such for any type of financial gain. this is a problem that is ongoing here, and has been brought up a time or two. </div></div>

I think it's an excellent idea. How do we go about finding these volunteers that are not here as traders? </div></div>

You already have
smile.gif

Ace Logan, Alexandra and others that are not involved in the buying/selling/trading areas.

Open up a thread to "recruit" mods. One of the reqs can be that you cant have conflicting interests. If you trade/buy/sell, you cant be a mod. I'm sure you would have a lot of people step up.
 
Banned - failed to resolve - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/894043-Account-recalled-by-SpartanMD/page2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">\

OUCH! Trade your safety on an account for the risk of identity theft of the original owner. We have already seen at least one organized crime group that has been using one or more sites that are buying accounts and requiring ID like this that has been abusing it. It's very dangerous to send ID to one of these sites or an individual. This is part of why we created TWV. so that you can share certain info without exposing yourself. </div></div>

I can't argue that, I really didn't think that through when writing it. Touche!
 
Pros to banning scammer

- Silence their scam advertisement, one thing that come to my mind were the stolen credit scam that went on for some time, if we just labeled these guy as frauder, they would have keep advertising and they would have caught up more people in their scam.

- It require em to put more effort into scamming, they need to register a new account, possibly use a proxy, which can easily betray em if they use it poorly ( aka lots of location changes in a short time )

Right now, I would say one of the most current scam is the ''impersonator'' these scam require no MD account as most are done in a fashion where the scammer claim not to be able to use the MD system, but use other tool and fake em ( spoof e-mail, fake AIM).

Fact remain, most scam can be avoided with prevention. It is a lots of stuff to get into and its is very complicated for any member who join the forum to learn about all this stuff. We need to encourage prevention education. As long as people don't put more effort and time and expect quick result there will be fraud.

As for the judge of the bans, I think the current system is very well done. As in the mod manage the scam accusation ( contacts people, require proper format ect..) And I think it is fine for mod to offer services. As for the judge themselves ( the admins ) they do an excellent job being non biased and they provide us with quick answer. Thing have been rolling fine on the scammer forums, issues get cleared quickly, my hats off to all the admin team.
 
Banned - failed to resolve - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/894043-Account-recalled-by-SpartanMD/page2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoMoreCow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Open up a thread to "recruit" mods.</div></div>

As much as of a good ideal that is, I honestly dislike it. Unless you put a lot of restrictions and requirements, you are going to get a lot of members who want the position to be seen as a more important figure, or to abuse it. If they were to go about recruiting mods for the scam issues, I think they should keep their eye out for excellent individuals, not an open recruitment process. Maybe even a "vouch for someone who you think would qualify and explain why" thread would be nice.
 
NoMoreCow, The credit score idea may be something that could be looked at. I'll have to think about if it could apply straight across.

Donations have not worked for us in the past. Many of our volunteers do help out a lot here at the site. But they tend to come and go. when they go the ball usually gets dropped on what they were doing. Just a sad fact of our experience.

As for charging for special access, features etc. We do have some tools we have created for TrustWho that could be made available to generate some income for the site. I'll put this on my list to explore.

One question for you. You mention donations. Hypothetically speaking. If we were to put up a donation button and set 100% of the funds to go to site development of things that the community needs and wants. What would someone like you donate to that?

I could see creating a goal that is voted on by the community, getting development quotes on the work and then opening that project to donations. Once met we would start the work and begin working on the next goal the community wants. *Sparks some ideas*
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: isme728</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you dont ban the scammers, wouldnt they just make a new account anyway? if they have bad rep in one account they will make a new one anyways..? </div></div>

Maybe that is the whole conundrum. So maybe the easier, less costly route is the answer. Pick the better of two evils.
 
Banned - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/365274-md-nomorecow-aim-nomorecow4me-alive-3.html#post2178361
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">NoMoreCow, The credit score idea may be something that could be looked at. I'll have to think about if it could apply straight across.

Donations have not worked for us in the past. Many of our volunteers do help out a lot here at the site. But they tend to come and go. when they go the ball usually gets dropped on what they were doing. Just a sad fact of our experience.

As for charging for special access, features etc. We do have some tools we have created for TrustWho that could be made available to generate some income for the site. I'll put this on my list to explore.

One question for you. You mention donations. Hypothetically speaking. If we were to put up a donation button and set 100% of the funds to go to site development of things that the community needs and wants. What would someone like you donate to that?

I could see creating a goal that is voted on by the community, getting development quotes on the work and then opening that project to donations. Once met we would start the work and begin working on the next goal the community wants. *Sparks some ideas* </div></div>

If you added a 20 bucks a month subscription fee, I wouldnt have a issue paying it.

As for the straight donations, I wouldnt mind giving you guys a cut of every transaction I do. Ive made up to a 300USD profit off one account before, I would have no issue tossing in 100 bucks or so.

Also, I've made a few people signatures on the forum and they have offered to pay me 10-50 bucks, 9/10 I decline since I am not a big fan of paypal. If you were to set up a donation to paypal, I would have every user I make artwork for toss the money they are offering me in to there.

Edit 2- You should really just make a chat with this, lol.
I recall when I was 16, there was a social networking site named "WTD". It was just a open forum with profiles and they had a subscruption thing set up. They had 5 icons available for normal users, if you did 10/mo you were a silver member and now had access to more icons. This went all the way up to 80/mo OR you could do like 800 at once and have a "lifetime" subscription as a platinum member. You were able to add more fetures to your profile, more icons etc etc. Just because that site was my escape from reality, kind of like MD is right now, I dished out 800 bucks at the age of 16 to be a member there.

It's the small things that people will look for, I have a TON of ideas you could use to make more cash to put in to the site, if you ever wish to chat about them, PM me and we can get in touch.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoMoreCow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
You already have
smile.gif

Ace Logan, Alexandra and others that are not involved in the buying/selling/trading areas.

Open up a thread to "recruit" mods. One of the reqs can be that you cant have conflicting interests. If you trade/buy/sell, you cant be a mod. I'm sure you would have a lot of people step up. </div></div>

Here is the formula. It takes 10 mods to get one that will actually do more than one or two actions the entire time they are a mod. It takes 100 mods to get one that likes what they do here and they do all actions with good ethics. It takes 200 mods to find someone worthy of being a good admin. Then finally it takes 500 mods to find a shining star like Alexandra or Ace. We regularly cycle through mods.
 
Banned - failed to resolve - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/894043-Account-recalled-by-SpartanMD/page2
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One question for you. You mention donations. Hypothetically speaking. If we were to put up a donation button and set 100% of the funds to go to site development of things that the community needs and wants. What would someone like you donate to that? </div></div>

I am not the richest man on these forums by far, but I would have to say if it was to lead towards solving this issue better, and improving other things on the site, I would easily start donating. I make a decent amount off of this site, and since I also have a full time job, it is all extra money that isn't necessarily needed. If it weren't for this site, I wouldn't have that money, so I wouldn't mind donating.

If you add incentives to donating, such as extra little symbols to your profile, a lot of people will be highly inclined to donate.
 
Re: Discussion of banning scammers vs. allowing them to keep their accounts

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Here is the formula. It takes 10 mods to get one that will actually do more than one or two actions the entire time they are a mod. It takes 100 mods to get one that likes what they do here and they do all actions with good ethics. It takes 200 mods to find someone worthy of being a good admin. Then finally it takes 500 mods to find a shining star like Alexandra or Ace. We regularly cycle through mods. </div></div>

You said it all!!
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoMoreCow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you added a 20 bucks a month subscription fee, I wouldnt have a issue paying it.

As for the straight donations, I wouldnt mind giving you guys a cut of every transaction I do. Ive made up to a 300USD profit off one account before, I would have no issue tossing in 100 bucks or so.

Also, I've made a few people signatures on the forum and they have offered to pay me 10-50 bucks, 9/10 I decline since I am not a big fan of paypal. If you were to set up a donation to paypal, I would have every user I make artwork for toss the money they are offering me in to there. </div></div>

Well I guess it would not much to try getting donated funds for one project. I'll set this on my list and talk with Alexandra about how to proceed.
 
Banned - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/365274-md-nomorecow-aim-nomorecow4me-alive-3.html#post2178361
Make sure you read my post again, I am a little ADD so I go back and edit my stuff a lot >.>
 
I did catch the edit when reviewing it. The little addons is something I do want to look at. We have one project that involves replacing the forums engine. I'm not sure yet what features along these lines will be available once this is done.

So I mentally put that on hold for the moment.
smile.gif
 
Banned - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/365274-md-nomorecow-aim-nomorecow4me-alive-3.html#post2178361
Well, at the end of the day it sounds like this to me:

You have a lot of ideas to create more money to use for site upgrades. You plan on implementing them sooner or later. This will give you more money to pay more good admins
smile.gif


Those good admins can now go out and ban all the scammers. Problem solved
laugh.gif
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: NoMoreCow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, ban them.

If you don't ban them and they start getting negative feedback left, whats stopping them from making a new account anyway? Also, lets say I was to scam. I now have 14 positives and 1 negative. I'm sure I can justify the negative to a lot of people if I really tried. At the end of the day, my positives will outweigh my negative.

When you ban a scammer you force them to start all over, with nothing. The smart MD users will NOT trade with somebody who just registered and has only a couple of posts.

Not banning them in my eyes should not even be considered, it's like saying every time somebody commits a crime, don't send them to jail, just give them a small tattoo in a non visible place.


Edit: Why not start IP banning users? This is the first board I've been a member on that does not IP ban. If you did this, then you have no worries about them coming back with a new user name. This would force them to resolve the issue if they wanted to be part of the site again.

Give people a chance to resolve their issues, but until they do, keep them off MD. </div></div>

I'm relatively new around here, and don't really have any rep. I think that giving people a chance to resolve issues is a great idea, but the thing is I think people have been given that chance and have spit in the face of the admins (most of them), metaphorically speaking.

And I think that it isn't a matter of newly registered/few posts because I've done deals with people and I have what, 14 posts? I just did a lot of assuring, phone conversations, and going first to people.
 
I am a Six Sigma Green Belt, which means that I'm qualified to lead teams through a Lean Process. The problem with Six Sigma is that it's geared towards reducing waste and failure in mechanical processes.

It sort of fails when you add in the human aspect. MD's project management tools would be better geared towards what is needed here. Some of the Six Sigma tools could be used though.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ace Logan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a Six Sigma Green Belt, which means that I'm qualified to lead teams through a Lean Process. The problem with Six Sigma is that it's geared towards reducing waste and failure in mechanical processes.

It sort of fails when you add in the human aspect. MD's project management tools would be better geared towards what is needed here. Some of the Six Sigma tools could be used though. </div></div> Im impressed Ace! The last people i ever met related to Six Sigma was back in my highschool years in a honeywell internship program.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ohxLAWL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know what would weed a lot of scammers out, If we had to pay a fee to join the site.

ez as that. </div></div>

Not really as easy as that. If we require people to pay to access the data here we will have a large amount of people just go to another site. Also if we close it off we lose search results. SEO.

We also will still have people that contact traders outside of the forums. We can not force them to use the forums.
 
Banned - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/365274-md-nomorecow-aim-nomorecow4me-alive-3.html#post2178361
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Markee Dragon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ohxLAWL</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know what would weed a lot of scammers out, If we had to pay a fee to join the site.

ez as that. </div></div>

Not really as easy as that. If we require people to pay to access the data here we will have a large amount of people just go to another site. Also if we close it off we lose search results. SEO.

We also will still have people that contact traders outside of the forums. We can not force them to use the forums. </div></div>

Check your e mail Marcus
smile.gif
 
My suggestions to combat this problem are as follows :

1. Create a paid consulting / brokerage service Marcus in which an employee from Trust Who can advise both parties as to whether they think the deal is legitimate or not after inspecting the terms of the trade as well as the merchandise. Also as a consultant, you could inform the parties of the consequences in which may arise from the trade such as Blizzard banning the account and so on.

2. Require that any person who wishes to trade on the Markee Dragon boards be Trust Who Verified otherwise they are not allowed to trade or create an exclusive board for Trust Who Verified members only in which only Trust Who Verified members can post and trade on thus people visiting this board can visit knowing that everyone posting there is TrustWho Verified. You could always leave the Non-TrustWho Verified boards up but also include a message in the board description that the trades within that board are at a person's own risk.



These are the two suggestions I can offer you here Marcus. Hopefully you find an outsider's opinion such as mine useful
wink.gif
 
I know I am not suppose to respond here :P- yet anyway
However the main topic remains <span style="text-decoration: underline">to ban or not to ban</span>


Ideas are of course welcome but I want you all to address the main question in your response before you list your ideas.
 
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