[Vote] Should "hand farmed gold" claims be allowed?

[DEJAN]

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Imo there are 3 realistic options to take into consideration:

(1). A seller cannot use handfarmed term in his selling thread if he already has a buying thread on the same section (simple reasoning: seller cannot know the people that sell gold to him are indeed using legal ways to obtain these said gold)
This is the current rule of the forum. This rule is normally fine, but some resellers use it in their advantage, they purposefully don't have a buying thread so they can claim "handfarmed" true so they can attract more buyers, meanwhile having discord/telegram/facebook groups filled with thousands of supplies, which is kinda lame (not naming any names im shure they know who they are ^^)

(2). Ban handfarmed term alltogether.
(Good and bad) Good because it'll restrict all sellers from using handfarmed term, bad because it'll actually hurt smaller sellers who farm their own gold in free time and sell here on epic. Then again even these smaller sellers cannot prove their gold is handfarmed, dunno, i guess i'm just thinking out loud ^^ Anyways,

(3). This hasn't been suggested yet here i think. I was thinking if there was a option when creating a thread that every seller HAS to answer a simple question "Are you a reseller?" (Yes/No) If chosen "Yes", then that reseller cannot use handfarmed term, if chosen "No", that seller can use. Everyone knows who is a reseller and who isn't, so this cannot be abused.
This rule would prolly be better than the current (1). rule, cus the very resellers that purposefuly dont have a buying thread so they can use handfarmed term would stop doing it, and you'd only really see smaller traders using handfarmed term.

Regards,

 

[Rogue]

Banned - Previously banned: Endorra

Imo there are 3 realistic options to take into consideration:

(1). A seller cannot use handfarmed term in his selling thread if he already has a buying thread on the same section (simple reasoning: seller cannot know the people that sell gold to him are indeed using legal ways to obtain these said gold)
This is the current rule of the forum. This rule is normally fine, but some resellers use it in their advantage, they purposefully don't have a buying thread so they can claim "handfarmed" true so they can attract more buyers, meanwhile having discord/telegram/facebook groups filled with thousands of supplies, which is kinda lame (not naming any names im shure they know who they are ^^)

(2). Ban handfarmed term alltogether.
(Good and bad) Good because it'll restrict all sellers from using handfarmed term, bad because it'll actually hurt smaller sellers who farm their own gold in free time and sell here on epic. Then again even these smaller sellers cannot prove their gold is handfarmed, dunno, i guess i'm just thinking out loud ^^ Anyways,

(3). This hasn't been suggested yet here i think. I was thinking if there was a option when creating a thread that every seller HAS to answer a simple question "Are you a reseller?" (Yes/No) If chosen "Yes", then that reseller cannot use handfarmed term, if chosen "No", that seller can use. Everyone knows who is a reseller and who isn't, so this cannot be abused.
This rule would prolly be better than the current (1). rule, cus the very resellers that purposefuly dont have a buying thread so they can use handfarmed term would stop doing it, and you'd only really see smaller traders using handfarmed term.

Regards,

Fair said my friend!

The biggest issue is that bigger resellers use that term aswell. Highly doubt any small seller is actually botting, if and do, probably that smaller would be big by now! However it would be really bad decision of epicnpc to even consider disallowing me to use term Handfarmed, cause i spend my ass farming, and those unfair dudes just take advantage, even everyone knows they for sure did not get that gold through farming by hand! While we small do random things and through month we get some gold for sell, and then at end we cannot say that we did, what we actually did.... its sad..

 

[Kai]

Fair said my friend!

The biggest issue is that bigger resellers use that term aswell. Highly doubt any small seller is actually botting, if and do, probably that smaller would be big by now! However it would be really bad decision of epicnpc to even consider disallowing me to use term Handfarmed, cause i spend my ass farming, and those unfair dudes just take advantage, even everyone knows they for sure did not get that gold through farming by hand! While we small do random things and through month we get some gold for sell, and then at end we cannot say that we did, what we actually did.... its sad..

Imo there are 3 realistic options to take into consideration:

(1). A seller cannot use handfarmed term in his selling thread if he already has a buying thread on the same section (simple reasoning: seller cannot know the people that sell gold to him are indeed using legal ways to obtain these said gold)
This is the current rule of the forum. This rule is normally fine, but some resellers use it in their advantage, they purposefully don't have a buying thread so they can claim "handfarmed" true so they can attract more buyers, meanwhile having discord/telegram/facebook groups filled with thousands of supplies, which is kinda lame (not naming any names im shure they know who they are ^^)

(2). Ban handfarmed term alltogether.
(Good and bad) Good because it'll restrict all sellers from using handfarmed term, bad because it'll actually hurt smaller sellers who farm their own gold in free time and sell here on epic. Then again even these smaller sellers cannot prove their gold is handfarmed, dunno, i guess i'm just thinking out loud ^^ Anyways,

(3). This hasn't been suggested yet here i think. I was thinking if there was a option when creating a thread that every seller HAS to answer a simple question "Are you a reseller?" (Yes/No) If chosen "Yes", then that reseller cannot use handfarmed term, if chosen "No", that seller can use. Everyone knows who is a reseller and who isn't, so this cannot be abused.
This rule would prolly be better than the current (1). rule, cus the very resellers that purposefuly dont have a buying thread so they can use handfarmed term would stop doing it, and you'd only really see smaller traders using handfarmed term.

Regards,

All valid points, there are definitely pros and cons to whatever is decided here.

 

[Upwards]

Ban it 100%, you cannot prove it or disprove it. Unless someone is recording themselves farming gold (which would be kind of weird).
Also on that note I think claiming accounts in bottable games are "hand-made" should be banned too.

 

[P1trsavanger]

You shouldn't ban the term but the truth is that there is no way to verify it. Even if someone streams, it doesn't prove that he is not buying/botting extra gold... and if you ban the term then we are kinda back to square one. The best solution is probably to stop the biggest offenders which are resellers. So I think resellers shouldn't be allowed to use the term and other sellers that utilize bots in any way or any game.

 

[Halvdar]

Banned - Failed to resolve - TG#106958

i think it should be banned here so i voted no

 

[PrimalIndustries]

I voted yes on this, and I won't be changing my vote to no. Here's why:

Ever since this poll started, I have had new customers message me all kinds of questions. They've asked me if the gold is flagged, if I can provide screenshots of my market history, and ask me a bunch of questions unrelated to the sale.

Questions about if my gold is flagged make no sense because that's not how the game I sell on was programmed. They don't track "hacked/botted" gold because there's only a set way of getting it, either by the market, actually farming mobs, or playing certain events/game modes. If someone hacks, they would have to change the prices on the market and then buy it for that price or steal someone's account who actually plays the game. If a person is botting, they would have to set it to still play the game in order to gather the gold. We see that all the time with botters who use the teleport hacks to remain hidden so that they don't get banned quickly. At the end of the day all the gold still came from playing the game no matter the means of getting it. Around 100-1k accounts get banned every month for RMT, and the game has over 20 million active players. I think that says a lot on how the devs feel about RMT, because there's definitely more than that amount of players involved in RMT every month. And people asking me for my market data is just not cool. I don't know if they're other gold sellers trying to find out my strategies or what, but giving someone else my data of stuff I had to figure out over the years to make certain amounts is a hard no.

Before this poll started, a regular interaction with a buyer was always something like this:

"Hi, I'd like to buy this amount of gold for this server" or "Hi, I'd like to buy this amount of gold for this server and I'd appreciate it if you could give me any tips on how to not get banned for doing this."

The transaction usually took around 5 minutes in total to respond and give the gold. Now, it takes 30mins or longer for an order as low as $2 because I have to answer a bunch of questions that shouldn't even be getting asked. I think this poll is making buyers even more paranoid than they were before, and it's really unnecessary.

In every game, there is usually a banner or a large disclaimer saying RMT is against ToS and is a bannable offence. For the game I sell gold on, the devs release updates on how many players are banned every month for RMT and give details about all the avenues of which those players were banned for. So it's not like it's subtle that RMT is a risk for those who choose to get involved in it. Furthermore, while actually playing the online game, you will always see players talking about bots, hackers, and RMTers. Those conversations are always about how they're ruining the game, to report them if you see them, etc. So if a player has to leave the game and come to a site like this, they should already know that they're doing something against the game's ToS.

So sure, a seller can say "100% safe, 100% unbannable" all they want, but the truth is, RMT is a risk and no seller can 100% guarantee your account won't get slapped with a ban. And again, if a player is on a site like this and gets banned, then that's their own fault for not reading a game's ToS. RMT means real money trading. You are trading real currency for an in-game item. Players who value their accounts don't come to sites like this or they take a lot of precautions to protect accounts they don't want to risk getting banned. I can say that with experience because my legacy account I've had since beta, 10+ years, it doesn't get involved in what I do here, ever.

As for other gold sellers getting upset about the whole "hand farmed" thing, I think the argument is weak. You are selling something, providing a service. That means you are a business owner. What do we see as consumers every day? Advertisements. A good advertisement will make you want to buy something. You see a pizza commercial, for example, showing the cheese stringing, spinning on a plate with all the details of the toppings. You weren't hungry, but now all the sudden it's time to order some pizza.

That same concept is on this site. If someone's "hand farmed" term in their title is hurting your sales, advertise better. And say this "hand farmed" term is banned, what if your sales still aren't getting better? What's the next plan of action, ban other terms? Maybe what's really hurting your sales isn't the term but how you operate your business. Epic staff members already have a large advantage because they're Epic staff and get to put that in bold letters.

This poll seems more like a shot at non-staff sellers to do harm to them rather than help the community. If you're going to ban the term hand farmed, then also ban terms like safe, unbannable, non-hacked, and non-botted. We all know these terms are false in most instances, so why should those terms be allowed and not the term hand farmed?

 

[Kai]

So sure, a seller can say "100% safe, 100% unbannable" all they want, but the truth is, RMT is a risk and no seller can 100% guarantee your account won't get slapped with a ban. And again, if a player is on a site like this and gets banned, then that's their own fault for not reading a game's ToS. RMT means real money trading. You are trading real currency for an in-game item. Players who value their accounts don't come to sites like this or they take a lot of precautions to protect accounts they don't want to risk getting banned. I can say that with experience because my legacy account I've had since beta, 10+ years, it doesn't get involved in what I do here, ever.

Sellers currently can't say "100% safe", or make statments to the effect of there being "No risk of bans", but lets say for arguments sake they could, it would make zero impact on if their buyers gets banned ingame or not, so that much is true. No matter who you buy from, there is always a chance you will get banned for conducting any type of real world trading. Sure there are ways to help medigate this, depending on who you deal with and how they are conducting their services, but it remains to be seen if it makes any kind of major impact. Advertising somthing that is not in fact what you are claimg it to be shouldn't be allowed period. If sellers have issue with that, then that's on them.

If you're going to ban the term hand farmed, then also ban terms like safe, unbannable, non-hacked, and non-botted. We all know these terms are false in most instances, so why should those terms be allowed and not the term hand farmed?

Sellers will not be able to say "legitimate", "Legal", or "Non Botted" as well in the currency / gold sections if this moves forward. If there is anther way to compromise on this point, I'm open to supporting other alternatives. The last thing I want is to limit sellers, but I don't see how else this could be resolved aside from banning the terms altogether? If the vote supports the ban, (no one is saying it will, since the debate is split last I checked, and could go either way at this point) Mike still has to make up his mind on what actions he wants to take.

At the end of the day, buyers will continue to look for the most reputable sellers on EpicNPC or sellers with the best rates, so blocking a few words won't affect much. Sales will likely not see any meaningful impact from this and remain the same.

 

[PrimalIndustries]

Sellers currently can't say "100% safe", or make statments to the effect of there being "No risk of bans", but lets say for arguments sake they could, it would make zero impact on if their buyers gets banned ingame or not, so that much is true. No matter who you buy from, there is always a chance you will get banned for conducting any type of real world trading. Sure there are ways to help medigate this, depending on who you deal with and how they are conducting their services, but it remains to be seen if it makes any kind of major impact. Advertising somthing that is not in fact what you are claimg it to be shouldn't be allowed period. If sellers have issue with that, then that's on them.

The reason I brought up the safe and unbannable bit is because there are sellers in the gold forums using those terms, though looking through the forums it does appear many sellers have deleted their pictures or changed their wording since this poll has been created. And I agree that sellers shouldn't be allowed to advertise something false or misleading.

Sellers will not be able to say "legitimate", "Legal", or "Non Botted" as well in the currency / gold sections if this moves forward. If there is anther way to compromise on this point, I'm open to supporting other alternatives. The last thing I want is to limit sellers, but I don't see how else this could be resolved aside from banning the terms altogether? If the vote supports the ban, (no one is saying it will, since the debate is split last I checked, and could go either way at this point) Mike still has to make up his mind on what actions he wants to take.

It's the only way that makes sense and is fair, I think. If you ban one, you'd have to ban them all. Otherwise there would be no point since sellers could just use another roundabout way of saying the same term that was banned. However, I do feel for those who use the hand farmed term as their core business strategy. Those sellers will have to be more careful with how they respond to repeat customers and new customers moving forward, because when someone asks if they gathered the gold their self, they won't be able to say that anymore. I would also be impacted as well. My customers buy from me because I'm an actual player who's not trying to ruin their game or their experience. I've been told that they could have gotten something from a large reseller but chose me for that reason. Getting rid of the terms all together removes that option and knowledge from the buyer.

At the end of the day, buyers will continue to look for the most reputable sellers on EpicNPC or sellers with the best rates, so blocking a few words won't affect much. Sales will likely not see any meaningful impact from this and remain the same.

That is true. The playing field was fair already, but banning the terms won't really matter. Advertising is just fluff and buyers only care about reliability and price.

 

[MadokaMagicarp]

ban it for sure

 

[Retail]

Banned - Previously banned Akane

It's just as bad as the terms "best" "cheapest" "fastest" unless you're able to actually prove those claims. It's misleading like ENPC said.

Even if they offer the option to refund the purchase, your account/character that you received the gold on could suffer a full loss from a perma ban.

I vote to remove for these reasons.

 

[Rogue]

Banned - Previously banned: Endorra

It's just as bad as the terms "best" "cheapest" "fastest" unless you're able to actually prove those claims. It's misleading like ENPC said.

Even if they offer the option to refund the purchase, your account/character that you received the gold on could suffer a full loss from a perma ban.

I vote to remove for these reasons.

U made a good point, however this hits mostly on US! who actually farm our gold, and those botters, and resellers who farm through codes, get advantage multiple of us..

 

[minmaxzero]

The term should be banned.

This for me too

 

[MistiServices]

WARNING! Off-site contact information posted. Most scams occur off-site. Please contact members directly via EpicNPC chat. We do not investigate disputes if you communicate off-site.

1st - No marketplace/forum has a rule like the one which is probably getting added here. This rule will send buyers off-forum to other places, where gold it is advertised as handmade. Won't happen in a day or two, but over time, it's gonna happen. If people can't see that gold is hand farmed/safe or legit, they won't stick on such a place, if other sites are advertising their gold as such. Resellers will lose orders, the site will have a loss of profit, and other marketplaces/forums will grow.

2nd - If seller advertises his gold as handmade, and his buyers are getting banned, then seller whos doing those shady practices won't have much work and eventually hes going to lose most of his customers.

3rd - Can anyone know who is a reseller and whos not, if the new seller comes to the market, and he starts selling gold, he will get a lot of buyers because he will claim his gold as handmade if he doesn't ask for feedback he can keep his status as a small seller. Therefore he can advertise his gold as hand farmed. ( if there is going to be some limit on how much feedback the seller can have before he gets into reseller status )

4th - Buyer adds the seller on discord, asks him for gold, and let's say reseller claims gold is handmade, after a day or two or week, the buyer gets banned, what will happen to the seller in such situation if he's reported on epicnpc? Who can know what the buyer did from the moment he got gold until the moment he got banned?

Suggestion:

Seller should add some rules about the source of gold he selles for the game he works in , and what happens if buyer gets banned in some X period of time.
Then is up to buyer to decide will he accept his terms or not. On the end, market will clean itself from shady sellers and people will have more options to choose a seller who is 100% sure about what hes selling.

 

[LF_Arbi]

BAN

 

[EeveeTrainers]

How would you know if accounts being sold were botted or hand leveled? You also cant really prove that in some cases. Original owner / original email? "100% legitimate accounts?" Might as well ban them all if they can't be proved at this rate.

 

[EpicNPC]

We are planning on making an update to the filter system that will allow us to add disclaimers to threads. If a certain filter is selected like gold, leveling or whatever, a custom notice for that individual filler will appear in the thread.

I do not see the need to ban the claims "hand farmed" outright as gold disputes are generally not a problem. We receive the least amount of disputes about gold so I do not see the need to ban a phrase then there really isn't a problem.

The disclaimers will provide some general information about gold farming and we'll be able to do this for other filters as well. This way sellers don't need to worry as much about knowing every rule when creating the thread. The disclaimer will also appear during thread creation, so the seller can decide if they want to change some of their wordage if they want to be more inline with what the notice says.