New Verification System Incoming - Upgrade complete

leanardo · Jul 23, 2013

correct me if I am wrong but I think the only reason epic is going to charge for phone verification is because that is what it cost him, to use the phone verification service. Correct?

kenshinsd · Jul 23, 2013

leanardo said:
correct me if I am wrong but I think the only reason epic is going to charge for phone verification is because that is what it cost him, to use the phone verification service. Correct?

yes he says it himself on page two or three which i think is perfectly fine he shouldn't have to pay out of his pocket for it.

The problem is time costs I think.

Naota · Jul 23, 2013

Devonshire said:
can't, i have this

Devonshire, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Because you can't search plain and simple.

Sakura · Jul 23, 2013

kenshinsd said:
yes he says it himself on page two or three which i think is perfectly fine he shouldn't have to pay out of his pocket for it.

The problem is time costs I think.

Maybe set up a vonage or maggicjack or something...i dont know. It's a rough case if he wants the phone call.

Devonshire · Jul 23, 2013

Kamehameha said:
Because you can't search plain and simple.

and where is the utility, explain me

Artemys · Jul 23, 2013

My 2 cents on this, personally I agree some of these things are extreme, some were reversed.
Now a little insight from the Mod perspective that won't go into to much detail. Before this change: Can anyone guess how many new accounts that are either scammers or bots register daily? Out of those how many do you think get through and actually manage to complete the registration and start contacting members? Out of those how many successfully scam?
Another thing, our dispute forum doesn't have every scam that takes place. I get "I got scammed PMs" from users every now and then who when I look at who scammed them was a newly registered user with 0-1 posts. The ones who get scammed are also usually the same, new users who listed their account, or their want to buy an account.

Another thing to note, we have veteran members who are upset about these restrictions. Personally every forum I've been a part of which I've used a lot, I've gone to the next "level". In Markee I became Trust Who verified after I noticed I'd be using it more than a few times, if anyone remembers eGamingSupply, before I modded there I did buy into their Membership. Even other social forums that have perks for a one time fee that I use a lot, I support by buying into it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone should, I'm saying consider if it means that much for you, to support it. That's just my thought on this.

Having said all this, we appreciate everyone's feedback on this update, keep it coming. Please avoid being harsh or vulgar (not saying anyone has been ^^

, but post serious concerns and opinions. This will greatly help us (and EpicNPC specifically) on what to keep and what to change if needed. As with all new features, as negative as their percepted we need to have them running for a while to collect data and feedback. We don't have "Beta" forums in which we can realistically test these changes unlike MMOs

so please bear with us and keep the Feedback coming.

Thanks everyone for being part of this community.

Naota · Jul 23, 2013

Devonshire said:
and where is the utility, explain me

Just saying, your user group doesn't have the sufficient rights to search. That includes viewing started threads as that is "searching".

kenshinsd · Jul 23, 2013

Artemys said:
Another thing to note, we have veteran members who are upset about these restrictions. Personally every forum I've been a part of which I've used a lot, I've gone to the next "level". In Markee I became Trust Who verified after I noticed I'd be using it more than a few times, if anyone remembers eGamingSupply, before I modded there I did buy into their Membership. Even other social forums that have perks for a one time fee that I use a lot, I support by buying into it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone should, I'm saying consider if it means that much for you, to support it. That's just my thought on this.

quality posting that made me buy it guess being up for 27 hours had me a lil grumpy lol i just wish i had my real name on my paypal so i could get epic verified but w.e life goes on.

HashEater · Jul 23, 2013

or what if our Paypal email isn't the email we registered with, I don't see an option to submit that ether? This whole thing is just really putting a damper, on an already stressful situation.

RP_Jekyll · Jul 24, 2013

Devonshire said:
can't, i have this

Devonshire, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

Sorry, I did not relize that was a search function

HELLHULK Gaming · Jul 24, 2013

Artemys said:
My 2 cents on this, personally I agree some of these things are extreme, some were reversed.
Now a little insight from the Mod perspective that won't go into to much detail. Before this change: Can anyone guess how many new accounts that are either scammers or bots register daily? Out of those how many do you think get through and actually manage to complete the registration and start contacting members? Out of those how many successfully scam?
Another thing, our dispute forum doesn't have every scam that takes place. I get "I got scammed PMs" from users every now and then who when I look at who scammed them was a newly registered user with 0-1 posts. The ones who get scammed are also usually the same, new users who listed their account, or their want to buy an account.

Another thing to note, we have veteran members who are upset about these restrictions. Personally every forum I've been a part of which I've used a lot, I've gone to the next "level". In Markee I became Trust Who verified after I noticed I'd be using it more than a few times, if anyone remembers eGamingSupply, before I modded there I did buy into their Membership. Even other social forums that have perks for a one time fee that I use a lot, I support by buying into it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone should, I'm saying consider if it means that much for you, to support it. That's just my thought on this.

Having said all this, we appreciate everyone's feedback on this update, keep it coming. Please avoid being harsh or vulgar (not saying anyone has been ^^, but post serious concerns and opinions. This will greatly help us (and EpicNPC specifically) on what to keep and what to change if needed. As with all new features, as negative as their percepted we need to have them running for a while to collect data and feedback. We don't have "Beta" forums in which we can realistically test these changes unlike MMOs so please bear with us and keep the Feedback coming.

Thanks everyone for being part of this community.

This is one of the most thought out replies in this post. I agree with Art. The fact is this type of business will always be this way until there are legal ramifications that actually support virtual sells. Technically, everyone on this site violates TOS agreements daily. Virtual sales/trades will more then likely never be supported. Scammers will always root themselves in a system where they can virtually rob another with no penalty legally. It is part of the business. Egamingsupply was riddled with scammers doing exactly the same things they do here. THOSE same people move from site to site. Virtual leeches who deserve the BANHAMMER on the net as well as in real life.

People don't report being scammed a lot which provides the scammer with more success. I would actually like to see faster turnarounds on blatant scamming where we didn't provide such a drawn out judicial system. Its fair, yes; but only works in the real world. In the virtual world it gives them more TIME to enact more scandalous deeds. The judicial system is drawn out in courts as they are incarcerated during that period and need to be proven guilty beyond a shadow of doubt.

Here though we don't hold them in a cell. Most times they have 24 hours or more.

The staff does the best they can, and I imagine that in regards to Art's post there is over 250 scammers a day (my guess which is more then likely way low!)

I believe if its reported in the scamming section and its quite clear to temp ban them with a chance to provide proof to Epic via email. This would be there virtual prison from whence doubt would be decided.

And Art, I don't think I ever got TrustWho at Egamingsupply in the 7 years I was there so your right, it depends on each person's choice of how it will effect their sells/reputation.

Great post again, wish elegance oozed from such well worded thoughts

Epic 1NPC · Jul 24, 2013

Sigs will 100% not be coming back for Unverified members. It is a primary way for spammers to get free links. They create an account, add a sig, then never post so it's never found or reported., but link appears on their Profile About page.

Inbox size has been increased to 10 instead of 5.

Search will also not be coming back for unverified members, however I'll see if there is anyway for members to be able to search their own posts/threads.

I will make an exception for all members with accounts over 6 months old and with 5+ positive feedback. This mean if you created an account before Jan 24th 2013 you are eligible for a free upgrade.

Just PM me and I'll upgrade you to the new Epic Member group.

leanardo · Jul 24, 2013

The way i look at it, it is your site. Might as well kiss half your traffic Good bye, I foresee your new membership to decline in the next month by 50%

Just a thought from what I have read thru the post maybe you should have discussed your changes with all your your mods/staff. Before I become epic verified I was getting 5-6 messages a day, In my personal option that is going to be such a headache to non members.

Epic 1NPC · Jul 24, 2013

This was discussed with the mods before this was implemented, not so much on what features will be restricted or price points, but the overall idea and implementation.

Again, this is not restriction anyone from posting, creating threads or contacting other members. Everyone can still do those things. This is simply to restrict certain account benefits like sigs, profiles image, inbox size and a few other things, many of which are commonly abused by spammers.

The goal of the system is to make it work in such a way where the vast majority of members have some level of verification. If we are able to accomplish this it will not only make the entire forum a safer place to buy, sell and trade in, but it should also increase everyone's profits since the rate of scams will significantly drop.

The system will also be tweaked as we go to adjust to members feedback and how new members perceive the system. As I said nothing is written in stone yet and adjustments will be made if they are needed.

Daggart · Jul 24, 2013

I came from eGamingSupply as well. I remember Art, Gummibear, and Monarch(ugh) along with other mods and super-buyers/sellers.

The fact that online trading/selling/buying is already against many ToS of games makes it a breeding ground for people to show no remorse and scam away (obviously not everyone is like this) but it happens. This is well known, and a major problem.

However there are things already in place to help with this scamming issue. Middleman Services, "What to look out for" guides, EpicNpc Verification along with other verification sites mentioned. It is ultimately up to the seller/buyer/trader to use these services along with common sense (gut-feeling, reading intent, etc) to try and protect themselves as best as possible. Even with these in place scamming can still happen (as we saw with eGamingSupply). Scams happen all the time (I've been scammed multiple times myself) even with good practice. Realistically speaking we can never make all transactions 100% safe. Furthering the system seems futile, and unproductive. This new system will only deter traffic (good and bad).

That being said this new system does have a good idea within it! I understand this new member classification is to help prevent spammers/bots as well as scammers. I believe the phone number verification alone would be enough to combat Bots/Spam. Personally I would make it a requirement when signing up. You will still have some traffic being shunned away but not nearly as much as you would see with a $3.00 tag. It should be the users utilizing the tools already present to combat the scamming. Just my two cents.

HELLHULK Gaming · Jul 24, 2013

AWWW what happened to Gummibear he was my buddy at EGS!!?!

Naota · Jul 24, 2013

I just still am indifferent on the fee... Hell, if that's what the phone verification costs, I'll do a live version for $3 a piece!

MrAce · Jul 25, 2013

Interesting turn of events.

Epic 1NPC · Jul 25, 2013

I believe the phone number verification alone would be enough to combat Bots/Spam. Personally I would make it a requirement when signing up. You will still have some traffic being shunned away but not nearly as much as you would see with a $3.00 tag. It should be the users utilizing the tools already present to combat the scamming. Just my two cents.

The $3.00 fee is optional, so I don't see how that would deter new members from registering or using the site. Again someone who's new and registers can still post, reply, create threads, use PMs and the feedback system. They will eventually hit the inbox limit, depending how active they are, then they can decide whether to upgrade or not.

Adding it at registration would deter a larger amount of traffic and potentially new members. However aside from the no profile and no sigs, I bet 99% of new members don't even realize they have restrictions in place.

Those that are already members and use the site actively are much more likely to notice the restrictions because they are losing privileges. However an exception has already been made for veteran members with 5+ feedbacks who can upgrade for free.

Daggart · Jul 25, 2013

EpicNPC said:
The $3.00 fee is optional, so I don't see how that would deter new members from registering or using the site. Again someone who's new and registers can still post, reply, create threads, use PMs and the feedback system. They will eventually hit the inbox limit, depending how active they are, then they can decide whether to upgrade or not.

Adding it at registration would deter a larger amount of traffic and potentially new members.

I think we have a misunderstanding. I was referring to adding only the phone verification to the registration for when new members join, not the $3.00 fee along with it. Unless i'm missing the point that phone verification costs money (didn't read whole thread if it was mentioned). If it does, then yeah...my idea would be a terrible idea.

Lako · Jul 25, 2013

I personally feel the 3$ fee is fair. If you are only here to scam, you won't be paying when you can just do everything else. Why pay for something if you know you'll just end up banned shortly after? The 3$ fee I am sure is going to keep this site up and everything else with it. If someone really wants it to be known they aren't here to scam, they should go through enough obstacles to ensure the safety of others on this board from losing out on money. Personally, I'd say it should be 5$ to get to the next tier in user simply because the fee is that high, scammers will be turned away from that.

RP_Jekyll · Jul 25, 2013

Mike posted this on page 1

To comment on making the phone verification free, that is not possible for me to do due to the amount of daily registered users we have. If it was free and even 10% of new registered members verified their phone number it would cost me upwards of $500/month. If half verified it would cost me a few thousand per month, so making it free is not possible.

I appreciate everyone's feedback and I'll take it into account along with what actually happens over the remaining week and make changes accordingly.

Source: http://www.epicnpc.com/epicnpc-news...em-incoming-upgrade-complete.html#post3092926

leanardo · Jul 25, 2013

the fee is not going to stop scammers what is going to stop/slow them down is the phone verification, you can not use the same phone number more than once, And your wrong a scammer will spend $3.00 to scam you out of $50.00, $100.00, $200.00. You will never stop them, all you can do is slow them down.

Lako · Jul 25, 2013

leanardo said:
the fee is not going to stop scammers what is going to stop/slow them down is the phone verification, you can not use the same phone number more than once, And your wrong a scammer will spend $3.00 to scam you out of $50.00, $100.00, $200.00. You will never stop them, all you can do is slow them down.

YOu must not deal with scammers a lot. A scammer isn't going to go through that much of a process just to scam someone and be banned minutes later. Scammers are borderline lazy.

leanardo · Jul 25, 2013

Lakobaath said:
YOu must not deal with scammers a lot. A scammer isn't going to go through that much of a process just to scam someone and be banned minutes later. Scammers are borderline lazy.

Evidently you never deal with scammers because it is not a matter of minutes it is more like a matter of days or even weeks before there are reported on. Once you report a scammer it take atleast 1-2 day if not longer for them to get banned. A scammer can scam 5-10 people if not more in that time frame. I tshould be set if you are reported on your account should have a temp ban, if there is enough proof right off.

Lako · Jul 25, 2013

I have dealt with a ton of scammers and they are all the same. They are lazy. They won't keep at it for days in a row. They only do a couple at a time, then change their name basically. They aren't going to sit and pay 3$ every new name they make.

RP_Jekyll · Jul 25, 2013

Phone verifcation will stop most of the lazy scammers but some of the 'professional' ones will keep at it, there are ways around the "new" phone number

Artemys · Jul 25, 2013

You both are right. You're just talking about different types of scammers. There's those who'll play the legit game, then when they have enough rep, they'll do a few high profile scams at once and most likely get away with it. I've seen this happen many times sadly. Against that type of scammer, this won't help simply because they have a long term plan in motion. This type of scammer is patient and will shell out a few to reel in more.

The types of scammers this will help against is the kids or 1st timers who're looking to make a quick buck. Phone verification and the restrictions + fee will make them think twice about attempting it.
These come in much larger numbers and are the main ones we can protect members from.

In the end, us Mods and EpicNPC can only do so much for members. We put these things in for YOU guys to protect YOU. It's always up to the individual member to do their share of the work also before a deal.

HELLHULK Gaming · Jul 25, 2013

I agree, yet again, with Art. Deep rooted scammers (back when FFXIV accounts were very high dollar) would actually buy, sell, for high rep- then scam for high dollars.

We even had issues at EGS with Middlemen being "legit" for a long time, then choosing to scam high dollar accounts.

Honestly, the only people I truly trust are the ones I have known for almost 10 years like Artemys, Raven, and Gummibear. Those 3 have been wherever I have been.

Integrity is what you do when no one is looking.

- - - Updated - - -

And btw, not to "toot" my horn, I coined the term "BANHAMMER" about 10 years ago. Ok, I am tooting my own horn!!!

- - - Updated - - -

"Welcome to the BANHAMMER scammer!"

Daggart · Jul 26, 2013

RP_Jekyll said:
Mike posted this on page 1

Source: http://www.epicnpc.com/epicnpc-news...em-incoming-upgrade-complete.html#post3092926

Thank you Jekyll for clearing that up for me.

leanardo · Jul 26, 2013

I really have to say that your new mailbox limit is very dumb.

I have tried to mail 6 people in the last 3 days and you know

The following errors occurred with your submission

^^^^^^ has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

I dont know about you, but i would rather message someone than post on there thread. I understand your trying to combat scamming
but this new deal has already effected my trading.

TheRandomGuy · Jul 30, 2013

RP_Jekyll said:
on another note can an unverified member give feedback? IE: If I sell/trade with them I asume I cannot get or give rep?

mate, im unverified and I gave a person rep and I got rep :-/ we can still give/get rep during trades, so no worries on that one there, I do find the messaging system to be a bit stupid... but since I already got posts on here and have already had one good trade so far I might as well stick around

Epic 1NPC · Jul 30, 2013

The feedback system was turned off the first 48 hrs or so, but has since been re-enabled for Unverified members.

Domina · Nov 6, 2013

I would use this sevrice but I don't get the information where I can put my phone number for verification. Any help?

Epic 1NPC · Nov 6, 2013

The verification system is currently not working, but it will be fixed soon.

Domina · Nov 7, 2013

OK, thank you for feedback

reversemass · Nov 10, 2013

Thanks for the feedback!

HexKingTier · Nov 11, 2013

Where do we check to know if/when Verification is back up?

JasonTran · Nov 12, 2013

Right here is where you go if you want to know when the Verification System is back up

http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/378588-Usergroup-Benefits

But I am sure that EpicNPC will post back here once it has been fixed or still bugged.

Distinction · Nov 12, 2013

testing.. probably still cant post

- - - Updated - - -

Sigh.. it worked. Mike, or some mod can you please PM me? I can't PM anyone.. I cant post in almost any forum... This just started a few days ago, what the hell is going on??? I'm surprised it let me post in here... I dont know what to do, I can't make a thread anywhere it just gives message to short error or do you want to leave this page even though its a full post. Hope this edit works, its becoming extremely frustrating. I know this is happening to a few other people I know who use these forums as well. Nope.. edit not working either.

- - - Updated - - -

it lets me replay to certain threads, but not all of them... cant even bump my own thread for the last few days

test

Sanit1351 · Nov 12, 2013

A suggestion for the Mailbox space issue Mike:

Restrict to 25-30 messages for lower tiered (adjust as you see fit, but make it a decent number to avoid complaints)
instead of a very small inbox, limit the # of msg's sent out per day/week/month (whatever you decide, find a strict-ish number. should give ppl in pms time to just exchange skype/aim info in order to keep talking without running into their limit for whatever the time period.

havent been around in a while, feel free to ignore me if im not relevant

JasonTran · Nov 12, 2013

I actually do agree with you Sanit.

When I was unverified or a non-member, I found that the space in my inbox got really annoying. It should be raised a tad bit higher

So I ended up getting the Level 1 Verification, made it from 10-250

Sanit1351 · Nov 12, 2013

oh wow if the cheap verification gives you that much extra inbox space i'd say keep it the way it is. most/all serious, legitimate buyers & sellers can shell out the 3$ for that convenience.

Epic 1NPC · Nov 12, 2013

Distinction said:
Sigh.. it worked. Mike, or some mod can you please PM me? I can't PM anyone.. I cant post in almost any forum... This just started a few days ago, what the hell is going on??? I'm surprised it let me post in here... I dont know what to do, I can't make a thread anywhere it just gives message to short error or do you want to leave this page even though its a full post. Hope this edit works, its becoming extremely frustrating. I know this is happening to a few other people I know who use these forums as well. Nope.. edit not working either.

- - - Updated - - -

it lets me replay to certain threads, but not all of them... cant even bump my own thread for the last few days

This is the first I'm hearing about any of these issues. If you changed the email address on your account you have to re-activate your account, so you won't be able to post or PM. When you changed your email you should get an activation email just as though you registered a new account.

However I see your account is fully active so you shouldn't have any of those problems.

I logged into your account to test and I was able to reply, edit and send PMs, so I wasn't able to replicate the issue. Contact me if you're still having problems. if you can't PM me, then use the contact form at the bottom of the site.

Epic 1NPC · Nov 12, 2013

We started off with just 5 messages and I raised it to 10. However even if I raise it to 15 or 20, that will get filled up fast by anyone who plans on buying or selling regularly, so I don't really see a big difference in increasing it at this point.

The default group is also meant to me uncomfortable and push users into getting at least partially verified with the $3 membership group.

DkzGaming · Nov 13, 2013

how long it takes to get verified my account? i already purchased the level2 verification ty

Epic 1NPC · Nov 14, 2013

Verifications are manually processed and it can take up to 24 hrs.

New Verification System Incoming - Upgrade complete

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