Question about TG: what if seller claims they didn't receive the $

[srakosburakos]

Hello I got a quick question about TG: what happens in a situation where seller claims they didn't receive the money but buyer provides some proof of sending them?

I'm asking this because a buyer said they will pay the MM fee but then wanted to have official transaction lowered by a half - if account is officially sold for 500$ through TG but buyer awaits for 1000$ and they get only 500$ and claim they didn't get their money - what happens then?

Again the scenario:
0. TG transaction is set for 500$
1. Seller gives acc to MM
2. MM secures the account.
3. Buyer sends 500$ to the seller.
4. Seller awaits for the rest of the money and claims they didn't receive 500$
5. Buyer provides TG with a proof of sending 500$.


From TG's perspective its unknown whether they had any agreement or not.
Why don't MM receive money from the buyer themselves and sends it to the seller?

 

[The Integrity]

WARNING! Off-site contact information posted. We do not investigate disputes if you communicate off-site.

I'm not really sure what would happen in the described situation, since I've never had it happen before.

If the buyer claims price manipulation and provides sufficient proof - being onsite messages and not discord, we might alter the price and continue. But most likely the trade would just be cancelled and reversed. Seller would have to refund the payment to get their account back.

In either case both would also get penalized, buyer for price manipulation and seller for taking advantage of the situation.
That's why it's best not to manipulate the price

 

[Adoxia]

When handling any dispute involving TG amounts we will use the amount that was used during the TG transaction.

This is a dispute that it has happened in and this is the stance seen on it. https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/gen...y-scammed-account.2227138/page-4#post-8355799

 

[Kai]

Why don't MM receive money from the buyer themselves and sends it to the seller?

Why would they? The MM takes on all the risk in this case, so it doesn’t make sense for them to hold payment.

 

[EpicNPC]

Video evidence would be requested from the buyer showing the payment was sent. The seller would than also have to show video evidence of their payment account showing the payment history.

 

[srakosburakos]

I'm not really sure what would happen in the described situation, since I've never had it happen before.

If the buyer claims price manipulation and provides sufficient proof - being onsite messages and not discord, we might alter the price and continue. But most likely the trade would just be cancelled and reversed. Seller would have to refund the payment to get their account back.

In either case both would also get penalized, buyer for price manipulation and seller for taking advantage of the situation.
That's why it's best not to manipulate the price

Thank you for all your answers!

This is not about manipulating the price but buyer potentially trying to scam the seller (me) out of the money. They wanted to buy for e.g. 1000$ but they also wanted to have official price 500$. They would want me to accept TG for 500$ and pinky promise to send the rest afterwards... If I raised it during TG then either I would just refund the money and regain my account, or in worst case, lose my account for half the price if MM would just assume that I got all the money and give access to account to the buyer.

And from the link provided by Adoxia this is exactly what would happen.

Make no mistake guys: its not the seller who does those shenanigans. Its the buyer who first claims they cover all mm fees and then ask for a favor of entering only a small portion of agreed transaction as official sum.

A MM faced with this dilemma can apply common sense and decency and let seller cancel transaction and refund the fraction of money they got to the buyer. A MM that has common interest with scamming buyer has no reason to do so. Its sad that your official system and precedence explicitly supports this way of scamming.

 

[srakosburakos]

Sorry I may have overreacted with assumptions about buyer and their intentions after reading that chilling thread and your official stance. If you had access to onsite conversations about splitting 3500$ to 1000$ and 2500$ which is a proof of organized scam and yet you still ignore it that makes you complicit. This goes beyond your TG or any other internal rules.

 

[Adoxia]

EpicNPC might have a follow up to your statements above so this is my stance on it personally.

You are still aware as the seller that you are scamming the website on the fees whether its the buyer or seller paying. You know how much the account should be posted for. You can refuse the MM transaction before money/account is traded if the buyer or seller puts a false amount in the TG transaction.

There will be future changes to TG so any fixes or changes right now would be a waste or I would have suggested a warning in the TG that states TG disputes will be based off the amount put in.

 

[srakosburakos]

EpicNPC might have a follow up to your statements above so this is my stance on it personally.

You are still aware as the seller that you are scamming the website on the fees whether its the buyer or seller paying. You know how much the account should be posted for. You can refuse the MM transaction before money/account is traded if the buyer or seller puts a false amount in the TG transaction.

I am aware of it (I didn't accept the offer).

In the scenario I provided you buyer lures seller and both are responsible for scamming the website and good work of MM, but in different scopes and even if those scopes were equal, current strategy allows organized scamming.

What ocurred to me is a potential scamming scheme where buyer starts with 'covering all fees himself' - which makes the seller both happy and feeling indebted and also indifferent to the actual fee. Then right after seller thinks all is agreed the buyer asks for a favor. Seller himself is indifferent to the fee as its covered by the buyer, so knee jerk reaction is to be nice to the buyer and agree (and yes this makes seller complicit in scamming the website - no doubt about it) to the lowered official price.

Scenario A: seller accepts 500$ and thinks they will get 500$ later after TG is closed.
Scenario A.1: MM didn't knew about the scam - your hands are all clean, seller can learn his lesson.
Scenario A.2: MM did knew about the scam and was reported by the seller and you could find proof in onsite logs - seller can learn his lesson, but MM should lose his status and be banned - how is it not obvious? Hiding behind your internal rules in this dimension doesn't protect you from universal mistrust. Just because seller is dumb or dishonest can't nullify the fact that you have a living proof that your MM is a scammer.

Scenario B: seller wants to get 1000$ before accepting transaction. So after getting just 500$ he shows his hand and says 'hey transaction was 500$ but buyer ask me for it because he covers the fees but the real transaction value was 1000$. i want 1000$ or I want to cancel the transaction'
Scenario B.1: MM didn't knew about the 'deal': Cancel the transaction / punish both seller and buyer / request buyer to pay 50% of the fee as his account his locked and cancel the transaction giving back the seller only 50% of the fee - you get 100% of the fee and you don't allow scamming duets of MM+buyer in your site. Seller will pay 50% of the fee or not get their account back which is worth 10x+ more. There are likely better solutions - this was first thing from the top of my head. But current policy is outrageous.
Scenario B.2 MM did knew about the deal and is in cahoots with the buyer: MM gives account to the buyer as the buyer provides video of paying 500$ - case closed ? <---- if you allow MM to force close transaction as successful you will have some low men do this scam. Its inevitable.

Current system is just rewarding and protecting scamming buyers.

 

[srakosburakos]

And about scenario B1 and B2: if MM is not stupid, you'll never know whether they were aware or not of the 'deal'. This is why the system should make it impossible to force approve transactions.

edit: after seeing a good MM in action imo the fees are way too low anyway and i'd be fine with even tanking 100% of the fee as a stupid seller. but losing account with MMs stamp..

 

[Adoxia]

And about scenario B1 and B2: if MM is not stupid, you'll never know whether they were aware or not of the 'deal'. This is why the system should make it impossible to force approve transactions.

edit: after seeing a good MM in action imo the fees are way too low anyway and i'd be fine with even tanking 100% of the fee as a stupid seller. but losing account with MMs stamp..

I do not follow on the force approve transactions. Buyers and sellers can stop a transaction at any point. The only time it becomes a risk is once payment is sent from buyer to seller as that is not controlled by the MM. MM transactions can be cancelled and then they will return the account and refund the MM depending on factors. Sometimes this fee can be forfeit depending on different factors.

 

[srakosburakos]

I do not follow on the force approve transactions. Buyers and sellers can stop a transaction at any point. The only time it becomes a risk is once payment is sent from buyer to seller as that is not controlled by the MM. MM transactions can be cancelled and then they will return the account and refund the MM depending on factors. Sometimes this fee can be forfeit depending on different factors.

If MM can't close the transaction as successful after buyer sends him video of paying 500$ without sellers consent than please disregard the part about forcing stuff.

About the second part - having proof of scamming MM in the logs - let me quote the Admin:

The TG on Nov 22 was completed. Price was $1000 and the seller confirmed this was paid. We do not recognize any other price. Do not game the TG fee system. If you enter $1000 then the price is $1000. We do not recognize the $3500 amount. There will never be an exception for this.

The correct amount was paid. Then the account was resold to giuliana.

giuliana owes nothing and I fail to see a scam.

Any secondary agreement you make with the buyer is not part of the TG transaction, even if posted in the TG chat.

A $3500 transaction has a $215 fee, you paid $65 by entering $1000 instead. If you want to manipulate the price to game the fee, we will use the price you enter for any dispute.

The price was set to $1000 and it was paid. Sorry we do not recognize any scam with this transaction.

Now after re-reading it it doesn't mention MM. So if MM did confirm in TG chat would you intervene?

And also if MM didn't confirm in TG chat, they have experience and eyes to read this - paying after TG transaction is an obvious scam - if MM saw convo in TG and did nothing... at least this is not as bad as MM convincing the seller himself that its fine.