New Personal Middleman Service - Trade Guardian

[EpicNPC]

Epicnpc is happy to announce a new Personal Middleman service for Trade Guardian.
https://www.epicnpc.com/credits_middleman.php?do=new_transaction

This is a traditional middleman service where EpicNPC will hold the item or account while the buyer pays the seller. Once the payment is complete, the item/account is given to the buyer.

The fee for the service is $9.95 + 5% of the item value.

Since MM services are personal, it will only operate during our normal business hours.
Monday to Friday from 10am - 4pm EST
The system will not accept any transactions during off ours.

How it Works:

• Buyer or seller creates a TG transaction as normal, but select Personal MM Service instead.
• A private chat will be created between buyer, seller and MM (Epicnpc)
• Epicnpc will secure the item or account
• The buyer then pays the seller
• Epicnpc delivers the item/account to the buyer.

The chat allows private messages to the MM only and sensitive messages are encrypted. Those messages are not held permanently and are deleted after a certain amount of time from the database.


Middleman Rules Changes
Epicnpc is no longer allowing Verified Members to offer MM services on Epicnpc.

• All threads in the MM Forum will be closed.
• All dedicated MM threads throughout the site will be removed.
• All threads that contain information about MM service, must be edited by the end of November. After that we will remove them.
  • We'll be sending out a message to all members we see offering MM services

I understand that there's a few dozen members offering middleman services here, but now that we have launched an official MM service, we do not wish to competed with those service.

Having one standard MM service that has uniform rules and prices, it much easier for customers than having to browser around a dozen different services with different methods and prices. We want this system to be simple for members to use and understand, so having multiple services doesn't fit into that.

If there are questions, feel free to post below.

ps. sorry for the duplicate PM's some of you got.

 

[somaliasky]

Does that mean EPICNPC will assume the chargeback risk for seller too? As far as i know, a lot of personal MM don't even touch money.

 

[EpicNPC]

No, we do not protect against chargebacks. Payment is send directly from buyer to seller.

 

[Sremke]

I understand that there's a few dozen members offering middleman services here, but now that we have launched an official MM service, we do not wish to competed with those service.

Having one standard MM service that has uniform rules and prices, it much easier for customers than having to browser around a dozen different services with different methods and prices. We want this system to be simple for members to use and understand, so having multiple services doesn't fit into that.

This will be the new revenue of Epicnpc, but at the expense of old members, it's not a matter of a perfect system, it's a matter of earning, to be honest.

 

[Luma Is Here]

What if I need a middleman during weekend?
Isn't that when most of the trades happen?

 

[MistiServices]

Good stuff but in other hand to put restriction on members who are doing such stuff is bad practice.Not sure why u are afraid of competition , customers should have options to choose instead this mm thingy.Kinda greedy of site , but we have to accept that , i hope greed wont go too high

 

[Kyo7763]

No, we do not protect against chargebacks. Payment is send directly from buyer to seller.

I don't really get what other people are saying, about the site being greedy. Because this site does have to make money through different avenues.

However, what I am having a hard time understanding is how you can charge for this service; and furthermore, state in the video state that it is "guaranteed to be delivered" and then post that it actually isn't guaranteed. That seems a little odd to me.

If you're charging for this service with a fee, and on top of that interest, it seems to me that the service provider should take the risk upon themselves to assure that the transaction goes as confirmed.

Otherwise it does not seem like you are adding any layer of security against the one thing people are generally scared about during transactions anyway... right?

 

[Novun]

It's also hard to see how this service can compete with Playerauctions or ***. Their fees are 12% and 8% respectively, but they protect against chargebacks and they also guarantee that the account won't be claimed back. (Even tho their system works terribly at times...)

So if you don't protect against chargebacks and also against account theft, then the only advantage is that no one will get scammed at the moment of the trade. In my experience, most scams happen after the trade has been legitimately completed.

I hope I'm wrong because you should have an official MM service. This website was lacking one for sooo long.

 

[YouRememberMe]

I think that it is necessary to give the opportunity to engage in this at least professional sellers. Then you get income for purchasing the status of a professional seller, and the seller can work middleman here

 

[ThePizzaMan]

It's also hard to see how this service can compete with Playerauctions or ***. Their fees are 12% and 8% respectively, but they protect against chargebacks and they also guarantee that the account won't be claimed back. (Even tho their system works terribly at times...)

I know I'm fairly new here but wanted to share because I have used both these sites. I'm glad you pointed out their systems work terribly because epicnpc system is automated while playerauctions is loaded with complaints thousands of them everywhere and the bulk of it seems like a poorly run team who isn't fixing issues - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/120...xperience-They-are-Huge-Scammers?goto=newpost

Epicnpc fees are clearly cheaper here, they actually verify the product while those other services don't making the transaction safer and while they don't protect against chargebacks (not a big issue to most), none of these sites including epicnpc protect against accounts being claimed back. *** has 7 day protection because they hold the sellers payment for 7 days. After that, if the account is recalled, no protection is given. Playerauctions has the same/similar system only difference is it looks like *** actually cares about their customers whereas Playerauctions could care less. Additionally, if an account is recalled, playerauctions makes you fill out this huge form questionnaire which takes hours and you have to provide proof and then they don't even help you after you filled it out. It's ridiculous. You can't expect any site to protect against account recalls for a small fee like that. They'd lose money.

Also most problems typically happen during the transaction. Sellers not delivering, buyers not paying. This system protects against that.

I actually am really excited about this. Plan to use this later in the year when I buy an account.

 

[doomedtofail]

ThePizzaMan is 100% correct.
Playerauction makes you buy insurance on account to get protection. Then does what it can to deny claims. (all insurances work this way.)

From experience Most of disputes and scam accusations (in threads never disputed) are for non delivery of purchase. we are talking like a 10:1 ratio.

Providing payment recall protection is high risk. The fees would have to be a lot higher due to risk involved, when trade guardian was originally enabled it had a 12.5% fee and sellers cried that was too high and no one used it. Because they want everything for free. Also protecting sellers payment protection increases the chance of recall and provides buyer no recourse if anything happens.

Providing account recall protection is high risk for site because expensive accounts are usually recalled not cheap ones. There for it would increase the price greatly and that has been discussed.

The system really needs more availability hours wise. We have people all over world and in different timezones and all have different lifestyles. This will probably change and be fixed as system grows.

 

[The Integrity]

[MENTION=177443]Kyo7763[/MENTION]

I don't really get what other people are saying, about the site being greedy. Because this site does have to make money through different avenues.

It's being very greedy and this has been going for some time now.

Making money through different avenues is not the same as abusing his position as the site owner to remove competition.

What he is doing now is equivalent to opening a LoL account shop, closing down the lol account forums and fucking over everyone who was selling lol accounts on his website, saying he doesn't need competition. Not to mention that his accounts would only be mediocre and that you can't really find the same variety as you could with 50+ account sellers.

This is exactly the same, the only difference being the amount of members being fucked over. That seems like greed and abuse of position to me.

- The service is not open 24/7 and does not operate during weekends.
- It does not provide money holding/chargeback protection which some MMs provided.
- The quality can't be as good as someone who's done over 1000 trades.

From my experience, if I don't respond to a MM request within an hour, there's over 50% chance that I lost that deal. Traders are generally impatient and want the account now, not tomorrow or in 3 days.
[MENTION=340034]Novun[/MENTION]
You're wrong.
Majority of scams happen at the moment of the trade.
Just check out the dispute forums and see how many disputes there are about going first and getting scammed compared to account recalls or chargebacks.

By simply using a MM, you are reducing the chances of getting scammed from 80% to 10%, compared to going first. Add ID verification to that and it drops to less than 5%.
A MM also provides extensive background checking and can use intuition to estimate the risk, further reducing the chance of scam.

This, even without any payment holding or guarantees already justifies the MM fee, if it's 4-6%.
Offering chargeback protection is possible, but offering recall protection is bullshit.

No one will give you guarantee from recalls, simply because it opens room for abuse and because it's not possible to determine if the account was actually recalled.
For majority of games, you have no way to know if the account was recalled or not. The support does not give you any info. I've only seen Blizzard providing info about recalls. So the chance of the buyer simply losing the account or attempting to scam by reporting the account as stolen are high.

I don't understand websites which provide this service and how do they do it. That's probably the reason why player auctions is full of bad reports. To me it looks like it's just another service like paypal's dispute resolution, where only certain proof is valid, while everything else gets you an automated response that you couldn't prove a recall.

 

[Novun]

It's awesome to be called wrong.

I haven't been scammed a single time at the time of delivery. Even when I was starting out. Some basic sense is required.

I have a few points to make.

1. It is more likely that someone will report a scam if it happened right after he paid. (Non-item delivery) That's why you see more disputes for that.

2. Accounts recalled after 2+ month are rarely reported. Especially here. People rarely play more than 1-2 months with a bought account.

3. On *** they protect against account recovery and I have to say their system works well. God damn well.

4. Insurance on PA is ****. Never said otherwise. But even without insurance, you can cause enough pain to big sellers to get a refund or replacement account, it just depends on your perseverance. Buying from non repped members will always set you up for disappointment. That's not the fault of PA.

I'm not saying MM-s are not needed. I'm saying what you see and what actually happens are two different things. This is why, I believe the current state of this EpicNPC MM service is not good enough. If it can't offer more than what current MM-s can do there is not much point to it.

Not to mention you are destroying the MM subculture here entirely.

 

[ARMIK]

Quite weird decision for me. Even though i wasn't making thousands of dollars by middlemanning, it was kind of a side-job for me (7-9 deals per month, so around 70$/80$) I must agree that this is wrong in many ways. Mentioning this so that people don't think I'm mad because I lost a fortune over this update.

I mainly dislike this for several reasons:

1. The most important one, some middleman here, are really professionals and there is nobody that will do MM better than them. On top of it, that was their main source of income on the site and now it's gone.
2. If the person that does middleman is not available, or takes too long to finsih 1 trade, it will cause an enourmous waiting queue. Trust me, some trades can go up to 6-12 hours long because sometimes payment doesn't work or other crazy stuff happens
3. The opening hours are only good for NA people. How will European and other people get the help with the trades? - You willl need to hire more people from Europe and this would be the point where it becomes the same way as it is now - where the person chooses a middleman based on his availability, and if for example im Offline/Busy they go for another one.


Instead you can run your OWN OFFICIAL MIDDLEMAN THREAD and you can HIGHLIGHT it or make it at the TOP so that people HAVE THE OPTION to choose you or choose others based on their preference. I have had many customers in the past that skipped other middleman to wait for me, also had many people that said "sorry you're too late I went with the other guy" - My point is those people HAD THE OPTIONS.

You had the same kind of stuff with League of Legends boosting, but it's gone for some reason. It was at site header part of the site.

The way it is now is like bruteforcing people to go with your middleman only. This is wrong in my opinion, and should not be coming from a person that lives in the US where people actually have democracy and the right to choose.

Further more, I have to agree with Integrity here regarding the fact that you can also soon say that All Dota, CSGO, LoL, WoW etc forums are closed and we can only buy from EpicNPC store in the future. The way things go right now I can definitely see it coming and for me as a person that makes money solely from selling accounts this can be like a stab in the back and immediate death of my business.

In my opinion the forum is where threads are created, this was never an online shop and you were only Administrator, it was a place where people could talk, sell their stuff or offer services. And it should remain this way. Right now as I see it, and people mentioned as well, this is becoming some sort of monopoly where the owner(s) decided that they can be the ones that can offer middleman service and in order to avoid competition they shut down the other threads. Like I said earlier, what are the chances of this happening to the Sellers as well. Is there a point where you start charging a fee for sales or listing a thread? Or shutting down completely the forums and making your own online shop? This is wrong in its core, I don't know what's going on or who is making those calls, but greed is not good. It has ruined many sites and business and you should not make the same mistakes people did in the past.

Listen to what the forum users say, at least ask for their opinion. You launched Trade Guardian and I'm pretty sure the percentage of people that used it is under 5% of all trades , but at least you allowed people to continue offering middleman services (they had the options to choose from, some went for TG, some went for human MM)


When I joined this forum in 2014, the online here was 50-60 people barely. Sellers/Service providers did this in order to make this website this popular by selling thousands of items/accounts/etc. I never saw a google ad of EpicNPC or any EpicNPC retweets/shares on social network. Meaning there was never an AD campaign that could make this a more popular site. And it's only the people that advertised here their accounts and sales made it possible for google to show the forum on the first page. I'm not a SEO guy, but I think this is how it works, the more people click on the threads of epicnpc the closer to the first page epicnpc moves in the search engine.

To sum it up, I agree with the decision of making the official middleman thread, it would get more attention obviously, given all the powers the forum owner has. But please give people the options to choose from, do not monopolize the forum. People should have options to choose from, same way they chose EpicNPC to advertise on and skipped others.

 

[ARMIK]

[MENTION=340034]Novun[/MENTION], if I sell you my steam/blizzard account, that has my credit card info, my ID, all of my payments and stuff. Can *** really protect you from me recovering the account? It will take me 20 mins to take the account back, so I don't know how you're saying that there is a site that protects from account recalls? I mean they can cover payment chargeback I guess, or have the options to prevent it from happening, but there is NOBODY that can stop an account recall.

Every time I did middleman and I was asked this question about account recovery I always said "Neither me, nor anyone on this forum can prevent that from happening". Perhaps the other game platforms work differently (even though I doubt it), I was talking about Steam and I'm 100% sure that it is the way it works.

There was a scam method that I came across lately with the mobile guard screenshot that makes you lose your account within moments, so I helped a guy recover it within 6 hours of his contacting steam support and providing details. Imagine this happening to account sellers that use middleman, what stops them from doing the same? - Nothing. Even though I tend to believe that both parties that agree to use middleman are less likely to be scammers (both sellers and buyers).


So I don't really know how can anyone protect ACCOUNT RECALL, not the paypal CHARGEBCK. Perhaps you could explain how it works?

 

[Novun]

It's not the actual recall that is negated but the financial loss.
So if you lose the account they actually refund your money. (Unlike a certain other website)
As you say there are no perfect systems to accommodate account trading, but its much better than nothing.

On a sidenote, if you would sell me your account and recalled it I would get it banned via support. I would also tell you this before we make the deal.

 

[ARMIK]

Well now it makes more sense, but the way you posted, you said they actually protect from account recall. So thats why I told you that it was impossible.

About account bans I honestly doubt it So if I lose my account to some scammer, means steam will just ban it? I don't wanna go into too much details on how recall works etc etc, because people would abuse this. Perhaps you're right, but in my 3 years experience I have never seen a recalled account that was banned after. Also people I MM'ed for never actually contacted me back if they were scammed

 

[Cecile28]

Hellow,
I allow myself to drop a little message about this situation. As I do not provide any MM service, it's not a money story at all.

I'm active on a lot of forum currently, and, so far I know, each those are working great because they have an active communauty where Admins (website owner) are quite detached.
For me, it's essential that Admins do not force people to stop services in order to start his own (except when website security/community is in threatened).

The old middleman system (fully driven by users) is something who have proven its success. I agree we can impose a thread template to improve lisibility, but imposing a not convienent system seem for me, not a solution.
Since we removed the Middleman Thread and officials middleman positions, I often see users asking for middleman, because they couldn't find any, because users feel lost.

Also, as already said before: you will not be able to know how to securise all the games exchanges. As exemple: a steam account trade and a POE trade is something really different, and require a specialist middleman.

To conclude: I fully agree with [MENTION=283059]The Integrity[/MENTION] and [MENTION=285399]@rmik | ROADTO7K.COM[/MENTION] .

 

[ARMIK]

Agree with Cecile28, sometimes when people came across me and asked whether I support this certain game or not, I would tell them that I don't and I would send them to Integrity or other middleman that I knew are capable of doing it.

It's not a rocket sience to learn how a new game works, but sometimes a game wasn't supported in my country (and at that time I didn't know how to bypass it).

 

[EpicNPC]

@Kyo7763

However, what I am having a hard time understanding is how you can charge for this service; and furthermore, state in the video state that it is "guaranteed to be delivered" and then post that it actually isn't guaranteed. That seems a little odd to me.

The video was created a while ago and does not discuss the new "Personal Middleman" serivce. However I don't understand your comment. The new service does guarantee payment and item delivery. However it does not guarantee anything after the transaction is complete.

Recalls
As stated above multiple times, no one can safe guard against recalls. Offering a warranty that guarantees recall protection creates a conflict of interests, which is why we decided against it.

Example:

MM offers recall protections for a fee ($50 protection fee)
Bob sells account to Joe for $1000
Bob or previous owner then recalls account

The MM has to make a decision.

1) Does he believe the account was actually recalled?
2) If yes, does he want to pay Joe the value of the account ($1000)?

The immediate question becomes "does the MM want to pay $1000 to Joe?" This answer is always no. No one want to have to pay $1000 regardless of what actually happened. Because of this, when the MM reviews the claim, it will be biased. They will look for anything to deny the claim. This in turns make the protection fee irrelevant and just a way to get another fee from a transaction.

It doesn't matter the site PA, *** or who ever else, it is in the best interested of the MM to deny the claim.

I didn't want to get involved in a business like this. Perhaps in the future we can come up with another business model that's a little more honest and less biased, but for now we're not going to offer recall protection.


Chargeback protection
Similar to recalls, for most payment methods it's impossible to prevent a chargeback or payment dispute. It can be a stolen CC, PP account, or they can dispute it with their bank or credit card company. Our Trade Guardian Bitcoin option is the only fully protected chargeback method and has a low 3% fee. So if you want 100% fully protected chargeback protection, I recommend opening a bitcoin wallet and start accepting that as payment.


MM Competition
I understand the argument to allow for MM competition, however I do not agree with it. From a buyer's perspective, when I go to a site to buy something, I want it to be simple. Once I made a purchase, I want everything to be straight forward, I don't want to have to conduct an 2nd search to have to buy something else.

We're making another update to TG to better integrate this new MM option directly into threads, so it'll be very easy for buyers to get started once they find the item they want. Once that's implemented, most likely next week, there's really not going to be any need to look around for a MM as it will be directly in the thread.


Service Hours
This service is new, so our business hours are going to be limited. We want to get a few weeks under our belts to see how it's working and make changes accordingly. Once we feel everything is running smoothly, we'll expand the hours and into weekends. You can consider this in beta if you like, then we'll have a full release later on.

 

[MistiServices]

MM Competition
I understand the argument to allow for MM competition, however I do not agree with it. From a buyer's perspective, when I go to a site to buy something, I want it to be simple. Once I made a purchase, I want everything to be straight forward, I don't want to have to conduct an 2nd search to have to buy something else.

We're making another update to TG to better integrate this new MM option directly into threads, so it'll be very easy for buyers to get started once they find the item they want. Once that's implemented, most likely next week, there's really not going to be any need to look around for a MM as it will be directly in the thread.

This is most ***** thing u ever said.Even worse than statemant that PA make good decisions about their insurance coverage.I am not middleman or so , but u are abusing power over everyone else,if ur system is soo good , then promote it , and let ppl choose , do not force them to use it.

 

[ARMIK]

Agree with the point that everyone here should have the right to choose who to go with. That's like basic sense of any free forum.

If the buyer wants to go with your middleman thread he will choose your over anyone else, but there must be a reason why you're better than others. Right now he will be bruteforced to use your service because there is no choice for him, regardless of what he thinks about your middleman and such.

Same thing would be if you shut down account sales for WoW accounts and say it's "easier" for buyer to choose our account shop rather that looking for 1000 different threads in purpose of finding what is really good for him.

 

[Cecile28]

It's indeed a question: monopoly vs concurence
For sure, we can argue that monopoly induces simplicity.

But in my mind, the aim of forums like Epic is concurence and diversity (when it does not concern security like upgrades wich require a centralization).
Forcing user to use an "official" service seem against the basic idea of an open exchange plateform, and against any idea of what a forum is.

Centralized middleman will induce loss of redondancy, loss of choice (wich can be view as an advantage), and loss of middleman skill (overall perspective).
Furthermore: if you look around, no major forum / trading plateform with only an official middleman have good reputation, I think it's significant.

 

[MistiServices]

Agree with the point that everyone here should have the right to choose who to go with. That's like basic sense of any free forum.

If the buyer wants to go with your middleman thread he will choose your over anyone else, but there must be a reason why you're better than others. Right now he will be bruteforced to use your service because there is no choice for him, regardless of what he thinks about your middleman and such.

Same thing would be if you shut down account sales for WoW accounts and say it's "easier" for buyer to choose our account shop rather that looking for 1000 different threads in purpose of finding what is really good for him.

But as we can see lately , greed is going high And in one hand is his forum he can do whatever he wants , we , sellers made it famous so he doenst need us anymore , feel free to kick competition.

 

[Sremke]

MM Competition
I understand the argument to allow for MM competition, however I do not agree with it. From a buyer's perspective, when I go to a site to buy something, I want it to be simple. Once I made a purchase, I want everything to be straight forward, I don't want to have to conduct an 2nd search to have to buy something else.

We're making another update to TG to better integrate this new MM option directly into threads, so it'll be very easy for buyers to get started once they find the item they want. Once that's implemented, most likely next week, there's really not going to be any need to look around for a MM as it will be directly in the thread.

Ridiculous, really.

 

[The Integrity]

MM Competition
I understand the argument to allow for MM competition, however I do not agree with it. From a buyer's perspective, when I go to a site to buy something, I want it to be simple. Once I made a purchase, I want everything to be straight forward, I don't want to have to conduct an 2nd search to have to buy something else.

We're making another update to TG to better integrate this new MM option directly into threads, so it'll be very easy for buyers to get started once they find the item they want. Once that's implemented, most likely next week, there's really not going to be any need to look around for a MM as it will be directly in the thread.

That's bullshit.
What you are doing is abusing your position to become dominant in the market and eliminate competition. You are creating monopoly.
You are eliminating the same people who contributed to making your forum popular and reach it's current state.

This is actually very illegal in real life. There was an incident just few months ago when google abused it's position in a similar way. And they got charged $2.7 billion for that...

Nothing prevents you from doing this, but I'm trying to point it out that it is extremely unfair towards your members, who made you what you are today. So many people are making a living out of EpicNPC and for many it is their primary job. If you are abusing your position like this, what guarantee do they have that their job won't suddenly be destroyed? How can they keep seeing the forum as a safe and stable place?

If your service is good, members will use it.
If it's not, they will find an alternative. The harder you force them, the harder they'll look for an alternative and your reputation will drop.

Forcing them might earn you some cash now, but in the long run it will be more damaging than profitable. You should focus on improving quality, not on forcing members to use something that they might not like.

 

[EpicNPC]

We view Middleman Services as a security feature. If we can increase the security and safety of trades and sales, this will greatly benefit all members. Sellers will be more comfortable selling and buyers will be more comfortable buying.

The MM service is not comparable to normal items, accounts or services that members sell. For example a few years ago when we had a "Gold Store" where we tried to empower members in an attempt to make buying gold easier for various games. Now, that service didn't work out so we closed it, but we did not restrict anyone during the time it was opened. Members still sold gold for those same games are they normally did.

We're not here to "bruteforce" sales or to create a "monopoly", sellers can do what they have always done and that's to sell their game items or services freely.

We're just trying to make the process safer, which in my opinion is the obligation of the website to try to do. We have phone verification, we manually review upgrades and we have free dispute resolution services, none of this is needed if we wanted to pass on security to members. All of this is time consuming and expensive, but we do it to try to create a safe community for our members.

This new Middleman service is the next step to increase security. If we can create an effective MM service that's easy to use and makes transactions safe, then it will benefit everyone.

 

[The Integrity]

The amount of ******** keeps increasing...

We view Middleman Services as a security feature. If we can increase the security and safety of trades and sales, this will greatly benefit all members. Sellers will be more comfortable selling and buyers will be more comfortable buying.

I view it as a security feature too.
That is a pretty accurate definition of MM service...

The MM service is not comparable to normal items, accounts or services that members sell.

It is a service that involves trading virtual items/online games that members profit from. How is it not comparable?

For example a few years ago when we had a "Gold Store" where we tried to empower members in an attempt to make buying gold easier for various games. Now, that service didn't work out so we closed it, but we did not restrict anyone during the time it was opened. Members still sold gold for those same games are they normally did.

Good times. You weren't greedy back then and listened to your members.
That's just the thing that we want now...

We're not here to "bruteforce" sales or to create a "monopoly"

That's exactly what you are doing.

We're just trying to make the process safer, which in my opinion is the obligation of the website to try to do.

How is your service safer than the service that trusted members were offering for years? At this point, it can only be less safe, as the people who are doing it don't have nearly as much experience.

How does making your service the only one available make anything safer?

We have phone verification, we manually review upgrades and we have free dispute resolution services, none of this is needed if we wanted to pass on security to members. All of this is time consuming and expensive, but we do it to try to create a safe community for our members.

Irrelevant.

This new Middleman service is the next step to increase security. If we can create an effective MM service that's easy to use and makes transactions safe, then it will benefit everyone.

The service cannot be much safer or effective than the variety of experienced members offering the same thing.

Sorry, but you are just avoiding the real problem here and trying to hide your greed.

 

[Cecile28]

It's seem you're mistaken between two idea:
1/ Starting an official middleman service
2/ Restricting all other middleman

I can agree that point (1) will improve security, and it's a good point that EpicNPC propose his service as "official plateform"

But restricting other middleman is for sure, not going on that direction.
Nowadays, people are only advertising middleman service on their signatures or on their threads.
All theses things you wrote: upgrade, phone verification, feedback are really good improvement.

For me, a compromise would be:
Start that system, advertise it everywhere, and limit the people who can offer middleman service to let's say the top 5%: people with 4/5 badges, +300 feedbacks.

It's not perfect, some may turn into scamming, but trust your system as we trust EpicNPC plateform.
What's telling us that EpicNPC will not disconnect the website one day, with all the credits, the IDs, and all the items engaged on the middleman service ?
The same thing than middlemans: reputation, and because it's your (their) buisness (and your money) !

Trust the system you made and at least trust your high ranked members. They're the ones who are making that plateform so great.

That will be my last message into that thread. I think everyone catched my point of vue ^.^

 

[EpicNPC]

Members that sell game accounts, items and services do for a certain amount of games, so the scope is limited to those games. A middleman service has a much wider reach and includes everything. This is what I mean by they're not comparable, we're not selling a item or service for a specific game. Secondly MM services is a security service, not a game service. As stated, a website has an obligation to provide safety to it's community and a dedicated MM can do just that.

In regards to safety, take a look at the dispute forum. Many disputes involve fake MM and many more tickets and messages report similar scam attempts . Having a single unified MM service make it's simpler and causes less confusion for buyers. It greatly reduces the fake MM scam by keeping everything on site.

 

[slyre]

Just giving some input from my point of view. I personally have never used nor offered a middleman service, just to clarify.


I think that offering a personal middleman service from the owners of the site is a great addition, because:

• It will be the most trustworthy way of middlemanning
• It may be easier if the system is well made
• It may be faster, again, if the system is well made (I didn't check/test it yet, therefore I'm stating it in this way)

But I also think that not allowing other people to offer it as well is not good, because:

• Other people might offer more advanced/custom middleman like:
  • Holding the money to prevent charge-backs or
  • Giving some sort of account recall warranty
• Offer a more personal service, because:
  • People may feel more comfortable if its a more personal level
  • They may not feel as "pressured" (probably not the right word but I hope you get what I'm trying to say) when everything isn't going perfectly smooth etc.

I can fully understand both sides point of view and I'm not sure either what or how the best solution would be but I think that you should consider this change a little more because from the looks of it some may be looking for alternative forums now from what I've read. Maybe something in the direction of restricting the middleman service a bit (in terms of who is allowed to offer it) and work them into the system (with a % payout) may be a good deal if the intentions aren't money.

 

[MistiServices]

Members that sell game accounts, items and services do for a certain amount of games, so the scope is limited to those games. A middleman service has a much wider reach and includes everything. This is what I mean by they're not comparable, we're not selling a item or service for a specific game. Secondly MM services is a security service, not a game service. As stated, a website has an obligation to provide safety to it's community and a dedicated MM can do just that.

In regards to safety, take a look at the dispute forum. Many disputes involve fake MM and many more tickets and messages report similar scam attempts . Having a single unified MM service make it's simpler and causes less confusion for buyers. It greatly reduces the fake MM scam by keeping everything on site.

Sorry but pretending to be an angel is pathethic , u are FORBIDDING other ppl to make a MM service , thats problem , noone is against official MM EPIC npc service , ppl are against ur greed and that u are removing other sellers , who have WAY MORE exp in MM than any of ur workers there.If we , sellers who made thios forum what it is now , allow u and ur greedy staff to implement services like these , u will do more and more in future , without caring whats outcome on sellers and ppl who make living of this.I dont get it why would u cripple ur site and forum so badly.I know u wont withdraw ur decision , but atleast we have right to say something in hope u will come to some normal thinking.

 

[EpicNPC]

[MENTION=461478]Cecile28[/MENTION] I appreciate the suggestion. At this time the only thing we have changed is that dedicated MM threads have been removed.

Threads in the MM Forum remain (but are closed) and members that mention their MM service in other threads also remain until the end of November. So there's a grace period and most members offering MM service have not been affected.

I am open to compromise and will always listen to the opinions of our members. During the grace period, I'm willing to wait and possibly reconsider some of the rules as we get closer to the end of November, but for the month of November we'll keep the rules as posted in post #1.

 

[The Integrity]

Members that sell game accounts, items and services do for a certain amount of games, so the scope is limited to those games. A middleman service has a much wider reach and includes everything. This is what I mean by they're not comparable, we're not selling a item or service for a specific game. Secondly MM services is a security service, not a game service. As stated, a website has an obligation to provide safety to it's community and a dedicated MM can do just that.

In regards to safety, take a look at the dispute forum. Many disputes involve fake MM and many more tickets and messages report similar scam attempts . Having a single unified MM service make it's simpler and causes less confusion for buyers. It greatly reduces the fake MM scam by keeping everything on site.

It's still a service that members could offer just like any other service.
Disabling members from offering it is no different than disabling them from offering accounts for a particular game. The scope shouldn't matter.

In regards to safety, take a look at the dispute forum. Many disputes involve fake MM and many more tickets and messages report similar scam attempts . Having a single unified MM service make it's simpler and causes less confusion for buyers. It greatly reduces the fake MM scam by keeping everything on site.

It might reduce the fake MM scam, but not greatly as you claim. The difference that it can make is very minor.
It might shift people from impersonating MMs to impersonating high rep sellers directly, but it will not reduce the overall scam rate using impersonation.
Impersonation will always exist, one way or another.

You are avoiding the real problem here.

Sorry but pretending to be an angel is pathethic , u are FORBIDDING other ppl to make a MM service , thats problem , noone is against official MM EPIC npc service , ppl are against ur greed and that u are removing other sellers , who have WAY MORE exp in MM than any of ur workers there.If we , sellers who made thios forum what it is now , allow u and ur greedy staff to implement services like these , u will do more and more in future , without caring whats outcome on sellers and ppl who make living of this.I dont get it why would u cripple ur site and forum so badly.I know u wont withdraw ur decision , but atleast we have right to say something in hope u will come to some normal thinking.

Exactly.

 

[Logisticz]

I have MM'd on this site since 2013. In my experience there are plenty of online games that require a lot of different procedures to verify an account.

Note: Since I have been middlemanning out of the 100's I have done maybe 1 or 2 had issues which were resolved other than that I had 0 issues.

For Ex.

LoL Trade. When I usually do this I verify Skypes / Emails all the basics to see if they are banned anywhere else on the internet or not. Then I make the seller fill one of these out.

"
- Account Name (the name you log into the LoL client with):
- Summoner Name (the name your friends see in-game):
- Password:
- The server you play on (NA, EU-West or EU-Nordic/East):
- When was the last time that you had access to the account (Month/Day/Year):
- Creation date of the account (Month and Year):
- Original email address used to register the account:
- Location where you registered the account (City and Country):
- List of locations that you have played on this account(City and Country):
- Last IP address used to play League of Legends -
- Internet Service Provider (ISP)/Internet Carrier when registering the account:
- Other people who have ever had access to the account:
- How did you first come into possession of the account:
- Location of RP purchases (City and Country):
- Approximate dates of most recent RP purchases:
- Email address linked to PayPal account:
- Unique PayPal transaction IDs associated with purchase(s):
- Payoncreditcard Transaction ID:
- Phone number(s), mobile provider, and country used for SMS transactions:
- Any PaySafe Card PIN/Transaction IDs:
- Any Prepaid RP card PINs:
- The last 4 digits and expiration date of any credit card(s) used to purchase RP:
- Any transaction or confirmation numbers received via email for this account:
- First five champions ever purchased on this account:
- First item ever purchased with RP (if applicable):
- List of at least 5 Summoner names of friends you have referred:
- List of at least 5 Summoner names of friends on your friends list:
- Any other family members/friends that have access to your account:
- Did you create the account?:
- Do you have any alternate/smurf accounts?:
- Has your email account ever been compromised?:
"
Is this something that EpicnpcMM will be doing as well. I really hope that this is something that should be taken in consideration and allow other MM's to provide there services as well. Cutting out your long time members who have provided so much to the site is just a slap in the face. I still rarely do MM's when I have time but I know there are folks out there that use this as a good side income for them. Buyers and or sellers on this site should have a choice of which MM they want to choose instead of going through only ONE Forced system.

Logisticz

 

[EpicNPC]

We do not collect any info we can't verify. Many of those questions are not verifiable, so there's no way to confirm if the answer is accurate or not. However we do many things in addition to just changing the login info, so yes, the service does many of those things you listed depending what the game or account is.

 

[D3BOOST.com]

I agree with the points made by Integrity and Misti. I am not a MM and never was; I don't quite understand why you are forbidding users from offering their own MM services but will instead monopolize it.

 

[MistiServices]

@Cecile28 I appreciate the suggestion. At this time the only thing we have changed is that dedicated MM threads have been removed.

Threads in the MM Forum remain (but are closed) and members that mention their MM service in other threads also remain until the end of November. So there's a grace period and most members offering MM service have not been affected.

I am open to compromise and will always listen to the opinions of our members. During the grace period, I'm willing to wait and possibly reconsider some of the rules as we get closer to the end of November, but for the month of November we'll keep the rules as posted in post #1.

So basicly if ur service fail u will allow other to offer their service again , like nothing happend.And later on when u come to some new idea how to **** over users , u will push it to see will it be accepted.So if u are testing something to see how it works ,dont test it that others bear burden of ur adventure into MM market.

 

[somaliasky]

Instead of Banning Middleman service outright, i think EPICNPC can hire the current MM and tax the transaction instead. Under this structure, when a member wish to use middleman service, he will click the Official middleman button. After he click the button, a list of current available MM will pop up. Then he can select which one he want to use. All the communication will be through the forum and EPICNPC can tax each transaction. EPICNPC can also make it a bannable offense if MM want to take the deals offsite. This structure can also make sure that MM service is available 24/7 and that MM with specific knowledge of certain games will perform better than EPICNPC.

To make sure EPICNPC receive the exact amount of fees for each transaction, MM who wishes to continue offer service has to make a deposit to EPICNPC first. For example, it can be $300 to $500 or more. Every time when transaction is completed, the fee will be deduct from the deposit. Once the deposit falls below certain threshold, the MM will need to deposit more $$ before he/she can continue off the service.

For a long time, I have been suggested a mandatory deposit for anyone who wishes to provide MM service because once in awhile we see MM does exit scam. If a deposit is required, MM will not be able to do an exit scam and will be liable for any mistake incurred during the process.

I have more ideas on this thing, PM me if you want to know more. But i think my suggestion can provide a coexisting solution for both sides.

 

[MistiServices]

Instead of Banning Middleman service outright, i think EPICNPC can hire the current MM and tax the transaction instead. Under this structure, when a member wish to use middleman service, he will click the Official middleman button. After he click the button, a list of current available MM will pop up. Then he can select which one he want to use. All the communication will be through the forum and EPICNPC can tax each transaction. EPICNPC can also make it a bannable offense if MM want to take the deals offsite. This structure can also make sure that MM service is available 24/7 and that MM with specific knowledge of certain games will perform better than EPICNPC.

To make sure EPICNPC receive the exact amount of fees for each transaction, MM who wishes to continue offer service has to make a deposit to EPICNPC first. For example, it can be $300 to $500 or more. Every time when transaction is completed, the fee will be deduct from the deposit. Once the deposit falls below certain threshold, the MM will need to deposit more $$ before he/she can continue off the service.

For a long time, I have been suggested a mandatory deposit for anyone who wishes to provide MM service because once in awhile we see MM does exit scam. If a deposit is required, MM will not be able to do an exit scam and will be liable for any mistake incurred during the process.

I have more ideas on this thing, PM me if you want to know more. But i think my suggestion can provide a coexisting solution for both sides.

ITs a good idea but then this is not a FORUM , it becomes a PAY TO WORK SITE.Point is that this is a forum , place where ppl can offer stuff and services , not a marketplace.This is one of 3 best forums i use , but with all this greedy ideas and rules which prevent us to use site as we want,wont be so good in future.

 

[EpicNPC]

As stated, we will re-evaluate at the end of November and decide if any of the rule changes need to be adjusted.

 

[Sremke]

Let's close this thread if our comments does not make sense.

 

[Luma Is Here]

I would like to leave my opinion as a new trader who joined this site recently.

I've done 3 trades here and each time I used a different middleman. Each of them had a different pricing and a different process for the trade with some advantages and disadvantages.

I'd like to mention some things that no one so far has mentioned.

1. The official middleman service has a $10 base fee, which is not the best option in case of cheap trades. If I'm buying an account worth $20, paying another $11.2 for the MM fee makes the total price over 50% higher, which would be a dealbreaker for me. A trusted member helped me do a $15 account purchase for just $3, which is much more reasonable.

2. Members providing MM service are much more flexible when it comes to paying the fee. They can accept many different payment methods, including skins and gift cards. Their fees are negotiable and even refundable in case the trade fails.

3. They are more flexible when it comes to checking the account. I was buying an account for a game that is not often traded. The middleman downloaded the game for me, which took a few hours, entered the account and checked if a particular item that I was mostly interested in existed on the account.

Not all middlemen did the things I mentioned nor were they willing to do them. But if you combine all of the features that each of their services provide, all of these are possible. And that is the main advantage of having variety and a choice between multiple different services.

The new official middleman service is a really good addition to the site and I'll definitely try it in the near future, but I do not like the fact that it will be my only option. Like I said, each service has it's advantages and disadvantages and having a choice is important.

 

[EpicNPC]

[MENTION=678177]Luma Is Here[/MENTION] Thank you for your input.

1. We can't provide a MM service for less than $10. Even a simple MM transaction can take 20-30 minutes so we can't spend that much time for $3.00. That's why the minimum cost is $10.

2. Yes, but as our service grows we will increase availability times. We also refund the full transaction is both parties decide to cancel right away. However once the seller transfers the account or item to the MM, we only issue a partial refund, the base $10 is not refundable. Again, this is because of the time we have to dedicated to the transaction.

3. Yes, many different MM services will be able to offer a variety of services, some that we will not provide. Our goal is to come up with a simple and consistent MM service. In the example you gave, it would be much faster to screenshare instead of downloading and installing a game. Over time we will adjust or add features to our MM service to try to offer everything a buyer or seller needs. Buyers and sellers can also request us to do certain things and we'll attempt to do them as long as they're not too time consuming.

 

[ITALY]

[removed]

 

[doomedtofail]

Opinions are allowed. But not childish responses full of masked cursing are not. If you do not like system do not use it.

If someone wants a middleman for 10 dollar account they should not be buying account.
Now why would people leave? they are not required to use the middleman service.
Middlemen charge 5-20 dollars on this site. a lot are in 15-20 range. So the only additional is the fee for percentage of value.

lets keep the rest of this discussion clean and friendly.

 

[CrownedClown]

Just wanted to throw in the obvious and before I do that I also want to state that I have never offered any middleman services, so basically this doesn't affect me.
Here is the issue. Nevermind that it's unfair towards other people who offer MM services and nevermind that generally there won't be much difference in the service EpicNPC will offer compared to other MM, the main issue that EpicNPC seems to overlook is that if you start handling all the MM'ing you are bound to encounter at least a couple of scams a day and I mean scams that happen after the deal is done and you basically can't do much about it. With each day having 1-2(or maybe 10, who knows?) people complaining about EpicNPC way of handling things, the only thing you will get out of this is negative reputation and that might damage(reduce) the daily/monthly visitors in the long run.
I personally have stopped using forums altogether because of negative rep, so you have to weight if the profits outweigh the negative view from your target audience.

 

[MistiServices]

Opinions are allowed. But not childish responses full of masked cursing are not. If you do not like system do not use it.

If someone wants a middleman for 10 dollar account they should not be buying account.
Now why would people leave? they are not required to use the middleman service.
Middlemen charge 5-20 dollars on this site. a lot are in 15-20 range. So the only additional is the fee for percentage of value.

lets keep the rest of this discussion clean and friendly.

Issue is that site is abusing thier power and taking advantage over other MM.Simply forbiding them to work or so if system shows sucessfull.and if system fails , he will simple allow ppl to work and get new mebers.

Thats main issue here, not a fee or that epicnpc offers it , its monopolizing market.Soon he will come to another silly idea to charge something else if this situation with middleman fails or succed.Atleast we can unite and show him that we as community are not puppets who will accept any change without drama.

And many mm services are 5$ which is acceptable for many users.

 

[cocgamer]

[MENTION=177443]Kyo7763[/MENTION]
It's being very greedy and this has been going for some time now.

Making money through different avenues is not the same as abusing his position as the site owner to remove competition.

What he is doing now is equivalent to opening a LoL account shop, closing down the lol account forums and fucking over everyone who was selling lol accounts on his website, saying he doesn't need competition. Not to mention that his accounts would only be mediocre and that you can't really find the same variety as you could with 50+ account sellers.

This is exactly the same, the only difference being the amount of members being fucked over. That seems like greed and abuse of position to me.

- The service is not open 24/7 and does not operate during weekends.
- It does not provide money holding/chargeback protection which some MMs provided.
- The quality can't be as good as someone who's done over 1000 trades.

From my experience, if I don't respond to a MM request within an hour, there's over 50% chance that I lost that deal. Traders are generally impatient and want the account now, not tomorrow or in 3 days.

[MENTION=340034]Novun[/MENTION]
You're wrong.
Majority of scams happen at the moment of the trade.
Just check out the dispute forums and see how many disputes there are about going first and getting scammed compared to account recalls or chargebacks.

By simply using a MM, you are reducing the chances of getting scammed from 80% to 10%, compared to going first. Add ID verification to that and it drops to less than 5%.
A MM also provides extensive background checking and can use intuition to estimate the risk, further reducing the chance of scam.

This, even without any payment holding or guarantees already justifies the MM fee, if it's 4-6%.
Offering chargeback protection is possible, but offering recall protection is bullshit.

No one will give you guarantee from recalls, simply because it opens room for abuse and because it's not possible to determine if the account was actually recalled.
For majority of games, you have no way to know if the account was recalled or not. The support does not give you any info. I've only seen Blizzard providing info about recalls. So the chance of the buyer simply losing the account or attempting to scam by reporting the account as stolen are high.

I don't understand websites which provide this service and how do they do it. That's probably the reason why player auctions is full of bad reports. To me it looks like it's just another service like paypal's dispute resolution, where only certain proof is valid, while everything else gets you an automated response that you couldn't prove a recall.

totally agree with integrity

Been here for a very long time now , and i am very displeased and sad to see how old and reputed members are being treated here.

i have already talked to mike over this issue

to be a MM , had to attain and undergo certain conditions and criteria's , but i c , all effort in vain now , really gets me upset and i am almost done selling on this site here , been a while of me being unhappy with epic policies and the way old and good members are being treated.

and now the MM service is taken away , i also cant seem to get to be a mod , just cuz some countries are banned just like that , very dubious , but well o well , the rep earned doesn't matter , services given don't matter , i have always tried to help out members and buyers not even purchasing from me , and have been associated only with epic , but alas , need to find a better platform to provide services now :/

 

[EpicNPC]

Closing thread. New announcement will be posted later today in regards to MM services.