Negative Feedback and more.

[Alienhated]

The user tehpwn bought PLEX from me. Thread -> http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/562538-ISK-amp-PLEX-EVE-Online-One-of-the-Safest-Deliveries

His ISK got removed by CCP. He wanted a refund I didn't do it and he gave me a negative feedback and posted on my thread.

Reason for not refunding and to remove the negative feedback:

1 - I clearly state in my thread -> "We are not responsible for any action against your account by CCP - You need to understand that there is always risk while buying game currency."
2 - I used one of the most safe methods for the trade.
3 - I didn't have a complain by any other buyer that bought from that account.
4 - He threaten me:

 

[tehpwn]

1) I could put a disclaimer up in an ad that says "I may or may not scam you." That doesn't mean if I scam someone it's not a negative trade experience. Plus there is a difference between the general risk you run anytime you sell items, and selling something knowing their is a much higher than normal risk because of the amount plus the fact you've been banned/flagged before.

2) You can only guess it's safe, do you work for CCP, do you know how their systems work? No, you are just doing something besides the obvious way of trading items in game and claiming its safe. You got caught within hours of doing it so obviously its not.

3) You were recently banned at the exact time our transaction took place, and it's a well known fact that CCP bans come in waves, so just cause a couple days have passed doesn't mean your other clients are in the clear. And even if they don't get banned/neg-wallet, the ISK was removed, and you were banned within hours of the sale, and I received a mail citing the ISK was removed because I received it from a party with "verified" RMT involvement, are you trying to say that's some coincidence completely unrelated to you?

4) As far as I'm concerned, you have a shady way of doing business not fit for these forums, so of course I will take steps to make sure other people don't fall victim and make the same mistake I did.

*edit*
The most glaring detail I'd like to point out about this guy but forgot to mention is.. Apparently he has been at this whole EvE RMT thing for a awhile as he said it's been a "long time" since his last ban, but yet the account and thread he is actively advertising from is only 5 months old, hmm, wonder what that means.

 

[Alienhated]

1 - The point here is that what CCP does is beyond my control and I make the buyer aware of that. If you decide to buy, it's on your own risk. This «I could put a disclaimer up in an ad that says "I may or may not scam you.» doesn't even make sense.

2 - I used several methods for selling ISK, and jetcan or ship shift in space is clearly one of the safest.

3 - I got a ban shortly after the trade, maybe one day or two, don't know exactly but it wasn't in the exact moment and not for RMT. I could even speculate that you turn me to CCP after buying from me since I was selling without any ban for some months. Anyway, this was one of the risks you had to take into account when buying.

4 - I did nothing that I didn't say I was going to. Items delivered in one of the safest ways. Now you bought knowing the conditions and risks, then you want to break those conditions and threaten me. If I'm shady I wonder what that behavior is...

"wonder what that means." Means that when I started selling ISK it wasn't necessarily on here? If you want to know I started by selling to ISK website re-sellers.

 

[tehpwn]

The fact remains that the only thing the buyer can do is pay and get what he paid for. The security of the transaction relies on the seller and how careful he was in covering his tracks. Obviously you've been at this long enough to have gotten banned before, and I know if you got banned that also means their was also probably one or more associated buyers at the time of that ban who had the same thing happen to them as me. Don't act like you have some perfect record of no problems, it seems the typical pattern is you sell ISK/PLEX using whatever method you want, fly by for a few months until CCP finally catches up to you and gets around to those banhammers, you've been on here for about that long, so your set to just be on par to be every other EvE seller who ran a thread for a couple months then disappeared.

The positive route would of been to acknowledge you got caught, and reimburse the buyer who went down in flames with you due to bad timing on his part.

The negative route would be to say oh too bad, and run with his money. If that was how things should work, then why try to be careful at all? Why not just put up neon signs everywhere letting CCP know you are a RMT seller and just sold some guy money, and let every other person get banned, and then say oh well, I got a disclaimer, guess that's how the cookie crumbles.

You took the latter. Regardless of whether or not you reimburse me, I paid $140, and got nothing, based solely on the fact you got caught. Hence, I had a negative transaction with you and left a negative feedback to reflect this.

I can't believe you're even trying to fallback on the oh I got banned for something else thing. I bought from you, I had the exact amount of ISK I bought removed, and you were banned, all in the same day. What exactly did you get banned for then? Did you happen to throw out some racial slurs on your way back to Jita after giving me my plex? The GM mail literally said I received items from someone they red-flagged.

 

[Alienhated]

I did acknowledge that I got a ban. But I can't do anything about it, I deliver in one of the safest way, I don't claim it is 100% safe nor that it is the safer, therefore "If that was how things should work, then why try to be careful at all? Why not just put up neon signs everywhere letting CCP know you are a RMT seller and just sold some guy money, and let every other person get banned, and then say oh well, I got a disclaimer, guess that's how the cookie crumbles." is wrong.

Obviously I don't like this to happen, since I lose all my ISK and can't satisfy the buyer. It sucks for you and it sucks for me too. I understand that you want your money back but then I would lose it plus my remaining ISK, but and I delivered the items as I was supposed to and you agreed with "We are not responsible for any action against your account by CCP - You need to understand that there is always risk while buying game currency" upon purchase adn in your payment you put "I will not dispute this payment as this transaction is for a purchase of virtual goods. With this payment, I am acknowledging that I am satisfied with what I have bought and realize that it is in working conditions." on your payment, and you gave me a positive feedback. Now you come at me for something beyond my control...

I have nothing else to say to you.

 

[tehpwn]

I didn't notice it till I was searching around trying to see if other people had similar issues to mine, and how it was dealt with, but apparently this is not the first time this has happened to this guy, see following thread,

http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/570255-Dispute

I have since decided to create my own dispute thread here,

http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/605816-Dispute-over-bought-ISK

That means this is the second occurrence since his account creation in October that we know about, and on top of that, both these occurrences are the only ones brought up of their their kind in the dispute section of this site, meaning it is both a reoccurring problem, and one that apparently the other dozens of sellers in the EVE forum haven't had.

Both involving ISK ceased, and large sums of money not refunded.

 

[EpicNPC]

I don't see why the negative feedback should be removed. Yes the buyer takes a risk in purchasing ISK from you and accepts the fact they have a chance of getting caught, but that has nothing to do with feedback.

In this case the seller's account was banned 1-2 days after the trade and the ISK removed and tehpwn is claiming the reason he received from CCP is that the seller is a "verified isk seller", which suggest the account alienhated used has been flagged before.

tehpwn please post a screenshot of the email or support ticket you received from CCP that states this.

alienhated you policy protects your from having to refund the money if the buyer gets caught, however that doesn't protect you from feedback. They are still allowed to give you a negative. You can of course refund them or send them more ISK to make up for the lost ISK, then the neg can be removed.

 

[Alienhated]

I don't see why the negative feedback should be removed. Yes the buyer takes a risk in purchasing ISK from you and accepts the fact they have a chance of getting caught, but that has nothing to do with feedback.

In this case the seller's account was banned 1-2 days after the trade and the ISK removed and tehpwn is claiming the reason he received from CCP is that the seller is a "verified isk seller", which suggest the account alienhated used has been flagged before.

tehpwn please post a screenshot of the email or support ticket you received from CCP that states this.

alienhated you policy protects your from having to refund the money if the buyer gets caught, however that doesn't protect you from feedback. They are still allowed to give you a negative. You can of course refund them or send them more ISK to make up for the lost ISK, then the neg can be removed.

The feedback was my point of the thread, I'm getting it for something out of my control and he already had left a positive one for the same trade. What about the threat, is that acceptable? I'm surely not going to refund him after that

«"verified isk seller", which suggest the account alienhated used has been flagged before.» before when? if they removed his ISK it's obvious they knew it was sold... Now, they ban RMT accounts on first offense, so probably I wouldn't be able to use the account after being flagged. Even if they flagged without banning I couldn't know such a thing (unfortunately).

 

[tehpwn]

I don't see why the negative feedback should be removed. Yes the buyer takes a risk in purchasing ISK from you and accepts the fact they have a chance of getting caught, but that has nothing to do with feedback.

In this case the seller's account was banned 1-2 days after the trade and the ISK removed and tehpwn is claiming the reason he received from CCP is that the seller is a "verified isk seller", which suggest the account alienhated used has been flagged before.

tehpwn please post a screenshot of the email or support ticket you received from CCP that states this.

alienhated you policy protects your from having to refund the money if the buyer gets caught, however that doesn't protect you from feedback. They are still allowed to give you a negative. You can of course refund them or send them more ISK to make up for the lost ISK, then the neg can be removed.

Sure thing, here is a screenshot of the mail from the EVE website,

Yea I knew I wasn't going to get a refund after a few minutes of talking to the guy about it, but thought it was worth a shot. Sorry to cause you guys a hassle by making a ruckus here on the site, I just got worked up from losing 140 bucks. I thought I'd got nothing for my money, but I realize now I least got a life lesson for it, I'll just try to be more careful choosing who I deal with in the future. Just kinda frustrates me that the way this works the buyer is the person accountable for the risk. Regardless if something goes wrong or not the seller is getting his money out of the deal, the buyer is the only one who is going to come out empty handed, basically the opposite of how you'd expect any consumer-provider relationship to work, anywhere. But I guess it's a black market so dunno what I expected, but won't happen again in the future, and I'm done fretting over it. Think I'll go back to buying only beta keys here like I have for my last four years of membership here, no stress involved in that.

*edit*
Oh he brought up a good point about me leaving both a positive and negative rep, I left the positive rep directly after the sale because he was bugging me about it, I usually wait a bit, and obviously should of in this case. Please remove it leaving only the negative one.

- - - Updated - - -

It would seem this guy just retaliated against my neg rep by leaving a neg rep against me. I'm not sure if this is valid, nor do I really care that much either way, but just wanted to bring attention to it here since it's relevant to the thread.

 

[Alienhated]

Regardless of the outcome, I guess I'm free to leave a negative feedback too, because of the threat.

I would like to know the reasoning beyond letting him change the feedback and not me.

 

[EpicNPC]

Revenge feedback is not allowed and has been removed.

The "threat" posted in the chat was that tehpwn was going to contact GMs and provide more info to them about you. I'm not sure what you would like me to do about that or what possible info he could provide to a GM that would have any affect on you. I would hope he doesn't do anything since he's involved in ISK RMT just as much as you are.


Our policy with currency sales are this:

As long as the currency is delivered in a manner that is considered safe, the seller is not responsible if the buyer are caught. We chalk that up to bad luck and both parties move on.

If it's shown that the method of delivery used was not safe, then that becomes a high risk sale and if caught the seller would be responsible for a refund to the buyer.


If you believe the way Alienhated delivered the ISK was not safe, you can make an argument for that. I'll have to check with other ISK sellers since I'm not familiar enough with the game to know whether or not the method is considered safe. If it's not safe, he would be responsible for a refund.

However if tehpwn does contact GMs and provide more info about alienhated to them, then he would lose the ability to receive a refund.

 

[Alienhated]

Oh wait, so he making a negative feedback after a positive one after the trade isn't a revenge feedback? If it corresponds to the same trade and he can change so should I, since he didn't understand the risks and conditions and makes threats. Isn't a threat a sufficient cause for a negative feedback?

"I'm not sure what you would like me to do about that" a negative feedback at least - it's related to the trade.

"what possible info he could provide to a GM that would have any affect on you. I would hope he doesn't do anything since he's involved in ISK RMT just as much as you are." If he couldn't provide any info that would affect me why would you hope that he doesn't do it? I'm selling their game currency, I think it makes sense for them not to have information about me.

I used ship shift to deliver the plex. He has no record of the trade in his wallet, only of selling them for ISK. There is a post about the method on a previous dispute -> http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/570255-Dispute

 

[EpicNPC]

Problems doesn't always come up the day of a sale. If someone buys an account and a week later it's recalled, the buyer is allowed to leave a second negative feedback even if they already gave a positive feedback.

You are not allowed to give the buyer a negative because the lost ISK has nothing to do with him. Because he made a threat, it does not warrant a negative feedback.

tehpwn isn't yet claiming the method was unsafe, so I'm not going to investigate yet. If he does and explains why, then I will.

At this point this dispute thread is resolved. I will wait 24 hrs to see if tehpwn want's to dispute the method of delivery, if not, I'll close this thread tomorrow.

 

[Alienhated]

"Problems doesn't always come up the day of a sale. " ok, if the buyer can change I don't see why the seller cannot.

"You are not allowed to give the buyer a negative because the lost ISK has nothing to do with him." this does not apply to the seller as well?

"As long as the currency is delivered in a manner that is considered safe, the seller is not responsible if the buyer are caught." So why can he change to a negative feedback? I delivered the ISK in a secure fashion, it was taken by the company.

"Because he made a threat, it does not warrant a negative feedback." So you decide what warrants a negative feedback... And what if I made a threat on you? Wouldn't I get banned?

So I'm not responsible for the ISK being taken but the buyer can leave a negative feedback because of it, despite the fact that he should be aware of the risks. Then I cannot change the feedback even if he (despite what is said before) gave me a negative feedback and made a threat. - i'm sorry but this is logically inconsistent.

 

[tehpwn]

At this point this dispute thread is resolved. I will wait 24 hrs to see if tehpwn want's to dispute the method of delivery, if not, I'll close this thread tomorrow.

I have nothing to add, thanks for your time.

 

[Alienhated]

I'll be very disappointed if this stays as it is, I clearly showed that I had the right to leave negative feedback or that his negative one should be taken off and even used your quotes and forum policies to do so.

Anything else is a biased judgement.

 

[EpicNPC]

If you buy a TV that has a 1 month warranty and it break after 2 months , the seller of the TV is not responsible to fix or replace it. However the buyer is still going to be upset because the expectation is that the TV will work for much longer than 2 months.

The expectation here is that the ISK he purchased from you was not going to be removed. In this case it was, so the buyer is allowed to be upset and give a negative feedback saying the ISK was removed.

Closing the dispute. Feel free to PM me with any concerns.