Sharing info about scammers?

Zoefken · Nov 21, 2015

Hey there epic members i just readed the hole topic about dane764 who scammed people for over 3000$. What i readed i found discusting to say the least. The person scammed alot of people and the mods would not divulge any information they had without a court order or something similar. I feel disgusted to know that a site that is so against scammers, frauds, thiefs to just let this slide by. I understand you don't want to be liable for a claim against yourself and what not. But there is a easy fix for the future.

Change your eula to use this site and add the following sentance.

If you or someone who handles in your name is caught and proven to be a scammer, thief we wil be obligated to share your personal info with the person that is scammed to be used in legal actions towards you.

Because lets be honest if tommorow someone breaks into your house and steals 3000$ of goods you would want there ******* name to take legal actions. Saying that you won't share the details because he can file a suit against you is kinda sad.

You could however have shared these details in private and no one would have known.

Now i wil share the details i have about this person to whoever asks me in a private message.

All info curently collected : http://pastebin.com/Xyj8q1mH

doomedtofail · Nov 21, 2015

Our EULA would not trump US laws and European laws are even stricter. Especially in the US you cannot post a drop of information on a minor unless you have the parents written permission not even a picture.

Also in many case the information they provide the site is not theres or not real. Dane was using his fathers ID so if we posted that information we are causing problems for his father including possible backlash and loss of jobs or inability to get a job if a search is done.

And also there's the liability if this information was used to harm the scammer physically or harassment or through fraud or identity theft.
Then there's the fact that some names are quite common and could have detrimental effect to people who share a name.

I don't feel breaking the law and providing information that could get this site shut down or bankrupted by a law suit out wayed by the use this information provides.

very little also will be helpful on this information for legal actions against scammers. Cannot sue a minor and most cases scammers are minors. Cannot go after someone through lawsuit in other countries. Police in north America do not take video game crimes seriously unless they amount in felony amounts of real money. And face it most scams are for items worth a lot but have no real world value. In this case was intangible game skins.

Zoefken · Nov 21, 2015

This info you are spreading now is correct in many ways but is wrong in even more ways.

So if i would share my dads info i can go and scam people? If you know he shared his dads info you can contact the dad to let him know what his son did? (just a idee)

Never wil someone loose his job because his son scammed someone. If so that company is liable for a suit

Wow personal harm harrassment .... this has nothing to do with sharing a name. I could get a addres of someone with a ip and a name. No one can be accounted for the acts of someone else. It is not because you share a name or a telephone number that you can be accounted for the acts of someone else. If you believe you are .... ok then.

You can sue a minor in every country. In belgium for example the parents wil probably need to pay back the money. Or he himself wil be put in a detention center for minors (i doubt for this but ok).

Now get real. You are not talking about 5$. You know who his dad is. You as a company should be protecting your users. Take actions? Send the dad a letter? Search his home number and call the dad? I don't give a damn what you do but protect those who do correct business and stop hiding behind laws that you know are BS.

doomedtofail · Nov 21, 2015

The laws are not BS we are bound by them. Maybe you do not understand that. So you rather we share everything about scammers and Mike lose his site and his money? That makes sense

Zoefken · Nov 21, 2015

Laws are BS if you hide behind them without noticing what steps you as a site can take to prevent those laws from beeing needed. You hide behind the fact that you can not share information with people. Totaly correct. I say get all the info togheter and send it to the police in the country he is from. Because now you are aiding and abbeding (meaning you are assisting in theft). Law works in both ways.

ViperOne · Nov 21, 2015

Zoefken said:
Laws are BS if you hide behind them without noticing what steps you as a site can take to prevent those laws from beeing needed. You hide behind the fact that you can not share information with people. Totaly correct. I say get all the info togheter and send it to the police in the country he is from. Because now you are aiding and abbeding (meaning you are assisting in theft). Law works in both ways.

Do us all a favor and google US/ EU laws. And then after you read them and disagree then simply go to a local Law Enforcement agency of your choosing and discuss what they will do to the "scammer".

In the US we have a Internet Task Force setup by the State Police in every state to aid ppl if they feel they have been victims of a scam, etc. When doing so this process is not easy. They take your statement and then depending on where the scam originated "US Only" they can try and help you BUT it depends on the level of the scam. In every state there are laws that based on the crime will either tell you to file a suit against said scammer or they will assist. In some cases the State Police will contact the Feds if the amount involved supersedes their jurisdiction.
Crimes involving a video game even though money is involved is something Law Enforcement typically will not assist in unless the amount involved is worth their time and effort as their man hours of time put in are worth it. This seems frustrating to the person scammed but in most cases the scammers do not live in that state so bridging communication is sometimes difficult.

I could go on about this but hopefully you get the point. And furthermore most games here that Mike allows are against the video game companies t.o.s. and would shed undue attention to this site and ultimately cause it to either be shut down or worse, a suit against Mike. Granted I am sure companies know we exist but allow us to do as we are based on whatever their reasoning is.

The Laws put into place are frustrating but until these laws are challenged and deemed not helpful to the ppl they will remain. We here as Mods and Admins do everything in our limited power to help our community and in some cases even though the scammer was banned from our site, only satisfies a temporary feeling of justice BUT some know how to beat the system make a new account and rinse and repeat.

Zoefken · Nov 21, 2015

And now i wonder if you actualy read what i typed. As you quoted me i suppose you did. None the less i feel the site admin - mods are not douing anything to help the people that got scammed. It is not hard to get the telephone number (home number) of this person and call his dad to tell him what his son did. There is no law against telephoning a person and telling him a story. There is no law against sending a letter to the law enforcment of a set country to tell them a story and let them figure it out. It is all nice knowing the law in one country (us) but this person is from canada.

We all know you have the data as the person was verified and if i recall corectly even a middleman. So if someone who is verified and a middleman can scam without any aid from the site managment why do we even need the status then? I personaly feel it is injust to hide behind laws and whatnot if there are ways to maybe get this resolved whithout needing law, but no word of set things beeing done. It is easy to say hell no we don't help because law x or y. But calling - mailing - ... is not against the law!

But if i read correctly what the scammed person should do is the following.
1. Start a suit against a unknown person and tell the judge epicnpc knows the scammer.
2. If this person is not from the us and starts the suit in lets say belgium you as a us company can say FU we don't listen to a belgium judge (wich is your right).
3. Start a law suit in the us against epicnpc for aiding and abbeding a criminal (scammer) and get the info this way.
4. Maybe after a year or so get the info and start a law suit against the actual scammer.

Kinda silly isn't it if you can do a phone call and maybe fix the issue in 5 minutes.

ViperOne · Nov 21, 2015

Well forgive me for forgetting if we do not agree with you we are a bad site or bad Admins/ Mods/ My fault.

Zoefken · Nov 21, 2015

Lol i am pointing out my taughts on the matter you did the same. We do not agree. Get over it. I know i speak common sense.

ViperOne · Nov 21, 2015

Zoefken said:
Lol i am pointing out my taughts on the matter you did the same. We do not agree. Get over it. I know i speak common sense.

From now on instead of trying to get members to side with you to further your cause against this site. PM Mike and get his views on this subject matter.

Zoefken · Nov 22, 2015

Lmao seriously? Mommy the big bully made a valid point i gonna tell the teacher.

Thats how you sound.

did i not make sense? Admins and mods should protect there members not the scammers

Lako · Nov 22, 2015

We cannot legally give ANY information out to anyone. No matter if it is a phone number or anything like that. I'm sorry that you do not agree with our terms of service here but they protect this site and members of this site. We do not and will not give any personal information no matter if it is age, sex, location, phone information etc etc. Please respect this. You made perfect sense that you stand by what you said and we stand by what we say. We will not divulge any personal information about anyone to someone else on this forum. Please move on from this subject.

doomedtofail · Nov 22, 2015

The law is the law. We are bound to it. No matter what you feel.
We do not have helpful information for most of the scammers anyway. Ive told you its fake, a parents or as in most cases, there is NO information as they are not verified.
We DO NOT HAVE ACCESS TO ID's.

Theres many reasons we cannot call scammers or their parents or sent letters to their police stations or families.
1) Language barriers. For example dane is a minor that resides in Canada. I won't tell you what part but its likely its a very french area. I do not speak french, its possible his parents do. we are not going to learn to read and write and speak other languages any time soon. And the fact that if we call the numbers we do have odds are its the scammers personal cellphone and that will be a waste of time.
2) Cost. International calling. Mailing International.
3) In most cases we have no exact address. We have IP address. They are not exact and are sometimes routed through other locations. Or many times a cell phone. The smart ones use a cellphone. Tons of foreign scammers get away with big money like dane. Any scammer via western union gives out more information to those they scam then we get.

Now I agree that we should do more, I am not arguing that, but we cannot. We are bound by US law because we are based in the United States. No EULA will circumvent US law would be held up in court. And fighting it at all would be costly.
A binding EULA would cost alot of money to make. It has to be reviewed by a lawyer to make sure its even legal and has to be written in legal speak.

Now some people want the scammers information to sue others want it for revenge.
Now if the scammers resides in the US and we gave out his information and he got attacked law would hold us accountable.

Any personal information posted on the internet could be used for fraud and identity theft. We do not want to be involved in that and cause that.
Any ip information will lead to ddosing which is also highly illegal and we cannot be to blame for that.

You might not give two shits about the site getting in trouble or any of us in trouble on a personal level. But we do. We are not paid for this so why should we assume the costs and legal risks that giving out this information would lead to. And why should we risk Mikes livelyhood doing so. Mike is in the US as is many of the mods, we should get in trouble to make you happy?

Zoefken · Nov 22, 2015

Whatever. Complaining about the cost of international calls or sending a letter. You want me to pay it? I am shure i get it back from the scammed people. You do know you have a bic community right? You know some of uw speak more then english? I for one speak 4 languages, ask help and we will. But now you are sitting on your hands hiding.

ViperOne · Nov 22, 2015

Zoefken said:
Whatever. Complaining about the cost of international calls or sending a letter. You want me to pay it? I am shure i get it back from the scammed people. You do know you have a bic community right? You know some of uw speak more then english? I for one speak 4 languages, ask help and we will. But now you are sitting on your hands hiding.

I officially believe you stay on this site to bash it every chance you get. Here is a solid suggestion to the problem you have.

Get the money together to start a site like this one. Put it together, then get members on it, then get your members selling there, then after they get scammed break every law you can to help these ppl based on your idea of how law should work. After the scammer realizes you broke the law to give personal info get a knock on your door from whatever policing agency you have in your area and answer to your interpretation of the law and see where that gets you.

Get back to us after the incident with what you learned.

Oh and a FYI: putting together a site like this could potentially cost you thousands just to launch it. And then the cost to maintain it, etc.

Have a nice day!

One thing I forgot to mention: Mike affords you and every member here the chance at free speech which the US Constitution clearly states. Great to see you exploit that every chance you get.

Zoefken · Nov 24, 2015

Lmao, play another tune. No law prohibits you from calling a number or sending a email. If there is such a law please show me and i wil shut up.

But this is funny i provide alternitives to law breaking issues and you stil assault me .... this makes no sense. Am i assaulting the site in some way or am i trying to change the way you think? If tommorow i would say the sky is blue you would denie it just because i say it is.

don't feel offended i am just trying to get my point accros.

Lako · Nov 24, 2015

Zoefken, just chill out. We aren't releasing scammers personal information. End of story. Move on. We aren't assaulting you as well so please use better toned wording as we are not assaulting you like you are suggesting. You made this thread to bait the Admin/Moderators into this mess.

Zoefken · Nov 25, 2015

If you feel i am baiting you in some way sorry for that (not my intention). I never said you should release the info i just said i would do it. On the other hand like i repeadetly say "there are other ways of resolving this scam issue wich requires nearly no effort from your side, yet you place your head in the sand and continue with your law parade wich i allready said you are right. None the less calling - sending a letter - ... costs nearly nothing". But neither you or any of the other mods is even touching this. It is like you are all obvious aware of my point but yet ignore it completely, this tells more about your people than it does about me. I gues it would be a nice way of earning some extra cash. Phone call service to epic members 1$ / minute.

Tottenhamfan · Dec 12, 2015

Dang, mind pming me about this dane764 guy? Im curious to find out some background on him

Sharing info about scammers?

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