Scam etiquette

[Zarathos]

I do not only speak for myself when I say it's a hassle to start a dispute. It's bureaucratic and scammers know that. You do not only expect users to provide logs, you expect them to go beyond their duty and edit out any identifiable data. Furthermore, you expect people to start disputes in a public forum, where everyone can see the disputes and everything in it - including your own information. This conflicts with your rule to edit out identifiable data since identifiable data is the one thing that matters. You can't provide meaningful logs or proof if transcripts are edited.

Therefore, to protect others, and those who are one-time buyers or unregistered and use the seller's listed contact details they should be informed in the sellers' thread that other's have been scammed. You indirectly allow others to be scammed in succession by removing comments that indicate malicious activity.

Last but not least, you must be joking by threatening scammers with an account ban? Do you due diligence and report the IP address to the authorities even if it's likely to be in vain. You are providing a trading platform but do a lot more to protect scammers than legitimate sellers.

Dear Zarathos,

You have received a warning at Trade WoW Accounts Buy Sell - EpicNPC.

Reason:
-------
Trolling (Behavior Violation)

You may not accuse someone as a scammer without proof

if you have been scammed please open a dispute here http://www.epicnpc.com/forums/142-Active-Disputes

and follow correct template: http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/347715-***-How-to-Report-a-Dispute-amp-Dispute-Form-***
-------

Original Post:
https://www.epicnpc.com/XFlaunch/posts/3447022/

He is indeed. A similar thing happened to me yesterday. Karma will hit him soon though.

Warnings serve as a reminder to you of the forum's rules, which you are expected to understand and follow.

All the best,
Trade WoW Accounts Buy Sell - EpicNPC

 

[Austin Powers]

we have rules and guidelines here at epicnpc. We require proof people have scammed other users note why we require users to create a dispute thread following the templates and providing proof. The infraction is Valid due to the fact forum rules ( you agreed to them when you joined ) state you can not post on someones thread saying they are a scammer.

If you do not like how epicnpc is run you are welcome to go to other websites that are more scam friendly.


The forum has been run like this since its existence and have had no hassles from other members creating threads if they have been scammed as they have no problem following forum guidelines.

Also since this is not an actual help request i am moving this to rants and raves.

 

[Zarathos]

And while the dispute is active and scam accusations are being edited away others may fall victim. You have a flaw in your system. Put the accused's account on hold if he's accused or at the very least let the scam accusation message stay until the accused makes a response to it.

 

[Zoefken]

amen to that zarathos

 

[doomedtofail]

BUT people accuse people all the time and its fake. People do it for a variety of reasons, they try to eliminate competition or hassle competition. It is not allowed so DO not do it? Whats so hard about a simple rule like that. We do not allow it because it is abused and doesn't give people who aren't scammers a fair chance to sell their items.

Most of the posts people make saying people are a scammer go unreported in active disputes, its a simple process that gives people a chance to prove innocence

- - - Updated - - -

So if this person scammed you and the other person, why are we here? Why isn't there a post in active disputes?

 

[Zoefken]

I believe you miss the essence of what the OP is trying to say. While the scam thread is up and vital details need to be removed there scam thread and contact details remain on the site. This allows them to scam a copple more people by the time your hole scam banaza is beeing done.

I can agree that in some cases when someone is called a scammer he obiously is not. But there is a flaw in the system.

A solution would be of temporaly disabeling all the means to contact (PM - skype - aim - ....) threw the site. But then you mods and admins would have more work. Meaning you would need to jump the ball and not wait a full day to respond and check details.

 

[EpicNPC]

The reason we do not allow scam accusations as doomedtofail stated is because people create new accounts to post fake scams accusations against their competitors. This just happened last week where 1 person created multiple accounts and posted in all of his competitors threads, not a scam accusation, but fake info to try to destroy the competition.

Another common practice is by scammers themselves who make posts accusing legit members of scamming so that when they're accused they can turn and say "no, I posted first, you're the scammer" and create confusion on the forums.

Because of this we allow NO scam accusations without proof. If you have proof, post in the Active Dispute forum or Scam Busters forum so we can keep the forums clean. If we allowed scam accusations in members threads, it would be extremely messy and unorganized. If there is an open dispute against someone, you are allowed to post in that persons thread and say "Beware, there is an open dispute against this person" then add a link to the dispute, but you can't just post "He's a scammer' with no proof.

I also regularly place warnings on members account, WARNING: Pending Ban to warn the community when a dispute is opened and enough proof is provided. I always give the accused at least 24 hours to reply and defend themselves, but when it's fairly certain the user is a scammer they're either banned right away or get a warning added to their account.

About the proof itself and posting sensitive info in threads. I don't think it's a big deal to open Paint and block out some sensitive info you might not want posted. I can take a few minutes to do, but I don't see any other way around it. Posting it publicly also ensures multiple people are seeing it and can help when people post fake screenshots, which happens from time to time. Having multiple mods or even members looking at it means there's a better chance to catch edited screenshots than if I was the only one looking at it.

If you have any other suggestions on how disputes should be handled, feel free to make them.

 

[Zarathos]

Appreciate the reply.

I'm not a supporter of putting extra pressure on sellers by having them provide the proof in case a of a scam. I may exaggerate a bit, but the scam victim may already feel violated and then there's the added pressure of gathering and collecting proof and hoping it suffices for the management here to confirm it valid. After all that, you still don't have your money back. The whole idea of the dispute section seems to warn others while there's little to no closure for the victim of the scam. Then there's the privacy thing. You wish to protect the privacy of the scammer but you ignore the fact that a conversation between seller and scammer is also a private conversation.

Having said that, I fully understand your point of views. I just want to make sure you see the downsides as well.


Turn EpicNPC in actual business people can rely on. Dispute system is nice but it aint gonna get your money back.
- Create a premium sales section or have users pay a fee first which you get back when the sale is successful. Similar to escrow.
- Emphasize on the user of middle-man services. Start your own if you haven't already.
- Enlarge PM boxes so users communicate here rather than on unmonitorable external networks.
- Disallow trash e-mail hosts and ensure e-mail addresses are verified before posting rights are given.
- Add phone verification as an absolute minimum when considering eligibility for selling/buying goods.
- Require ID verification before a user can put something for up for sale.
- Moderate new for sale threads and disallow the posting of public contact information.
- Have people link their PayPal account to this site. You can receive feedback as a seller and give buyers feedback.

I realize some suggestions may be (far) beyond the scope of the EpicNPC project, but you've such a ridiculous amount of scammers here you may need to think about it.

 

[HELLHULK Gaming]

I personally have been accused of scams. Situation was the people didn't add me via my Skype signature button and spoke to one of many impersonators instead of me. They thought it was me though.

I cant hand-hold every member that comes to the site looking to use my services, a little reading goes a long way. Being patient can save you from being scammed.

I do this for a living, and I don't even want my name in the dispute section even for a second. People tend to apply guilt just for being located there sometimes. This is bad for business if you do this for a living.

The rules in place here, for the most part, are tried and true; they are designed for the hardcore sellers as well as the newcomers in mind.

Sadly, you cant make everyone happy. That is just life.

In closing,

THERE IS NO OTHER SITE WITH THE QUALITY OF BUYERS/TRADERS THAT THIS ONE OFFERS.

Period.

If you don't believe me go try them, they are riddled with scammers. I have been involved in this industry for a considerable amount of time, and this site is king of the mountain atm.

 

[doomedtofail]

Well Zaro your ideas make sense but are hard or costly to do so. Theres too much liability in escrow. Playerauctions does it and it works and doesn't.

And you may not realise how many threads i read daily to see if i see return scammers or threads that look like previously banned members, check all their ip addresses and look for fishy things. I do not wait until someone gets scammed i try to be proactive and so do other mods. We aren't perfect, we are volunteers and all have jobs and families.

We weed put a lot of scammers before they get people then you guys realize

- - - Updated - - -

And we do stress middlemen, we have a section dedicated to them you have to apply to be one and we do not let anyone post threads offering the services unless they do pass the application

 

[Zarathos]

The is the decade of MMO's. My advice to EpicNPC (the user) is take EpicNPC to a new level and reap the benefits for years to come. Sure it requires some investment but you cannot beat a pristine reputation you undoubtedly receive as a result. You already rise above the others out there, but I'd rather word it as follows: you suck the least.

People only remember and generally only write about the bad experiences. Terminate bad experiences and you'll become the undisputed king.

 

[Keiichi]

Banned - dispute - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/keiichi-owes-me-fees-i-hope-he-is-okay-cool-dude.1433002/

I like EpicNPC how it is already. I don't think something should be changed Mike.

 

[Austin Powers]

Zarathos as i mentioned before. You are the ONLY person that has complained about this. And as they say

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Everyone else who was scammed and gets told to open a dispute thread 99% of them actually do due to the fact an actual scam took place.
Us moderators volunteer our time to these forums so yes we may check ip's and do our best to keep the community safe, we can not be on this site 24/7.

 

[Zoefken]

The moment you stop improving your gouing backwards raven

There should always be room for improvement and epicnpc is no exception to this rule.

Austin what you are saying is incorrect in many ways. He is not the only one who feels that way. He might be the only one who complains about it, but you do not know what everyone thinks. And checking ip's ::: seriously in what age do you think we live? If i wanted to i could mask my ip and you would not see where i am from. I could call my provider and ask for a diffrent ip. And don't you have a auto inspect IP system yet? Time for improvement.

Last but not least, is it because the masses are stupid everyone should be?

 

[doomedtofail]

I get your points on improving epicnpc. But I don't think the point of going the route of pay sites is the best bet.

"Disallow trash e-mail hosts and ensure e-mail addresses are verified before posting rights are given."
There is a set up here kind of like this. Also the people I catch scamming or returning scammers, are not using trash email hosts at all. They are almost all legitimate hosts. No private sites or corporate emails or website hosting emails on the most part.

"- Add phone verification as an absolute minimum when considering eligibility for selling/buying goods.
- Require ID verification before a user can put something for up for sale."
These are fair points. But this becomes costly and discourages honest buyers and sellers from joining site. You guys want to start paying to be members here? this is not a cheap option for Epicnpc to put in place. And verification is required to be a member here above newbie, and it routes out most scammers and returning members. You also get a lot of reputatable people that don't get verified because the cost of 3 dollars was a discouragement.

"- Create a premium sales section or have users pay a fee first which you get back when the sale is successful. Similar to escrow."
Besides expense of creating that. And possible laws making this difficult. This puts the burden on someone to manually approve or handle these funds. And when these get charged back by scammers is the site supposed to eat the loss? this could be a good idea for currency sales or powerleveling. either it is delivered/completed or its not. But account sales which so much of this site is dedicated too, its horrible or other things on this site it gets shady having that set up. Account or money can be take back at any time. Why would Epicnpc take this financial risk?

And Look at playerauctions they already do all this, people still get scammed. And Playerauctions make you pay for insurance and all this other nonsense and so many people get nothing in return.

"- Have people link their PayPal account to this site. You can receive feedback as a seller and give buyers feedback."
It is technically linked when you become epicnpc verified and you pay your fee. BUT people can have 2 paypal accounts by paypals rules alone and infinite number of fake paypals.

"- Enlarge PM boxes so users communicate here rather than on unmonitorable external networks."
We have large pm boxes if you become over a newbie. But I don't like pm communication because its slow and tedious. We had a chat box but it hurt the server traffic wise and people abused that.

- - - Updated - - -

And personally I like ideas of improvement, everyone can always try to do a little better.

 

[Sakura]

We intentionally keep PM boxes small for basic user's so they cannot spam people.

Becoming verified eliminates a lot of these restrictions.

 

[HELLHULK Gaming]

I agree with Doom, no issue with being open-minded, but people have to consider overhead. While some ideas are great the overhead that comes with it just may not be applicable at this time. Ideas are always good.

 

[EpicNPC]

I appreciate all the feedback. Safety has always been on of my top priorities for this site and I think the semi-new tiered membership levels go a long way to making the site safer. For the most part 95% of members banned have not upgraded their account's in anyway.

A lot of the feature's I've implemented over the years are to stop the fly-by-night scammers that register new accounts constantly, however at the same time some of those features restrict new members, so it's a balancing act.

- Create a premium sales section or have users pay a fee first which you get back when the sale is successful. Similar to escrow.
- Emphasize on the user of middle-man services. Start your own if you haven't already.
--- Adding escrow service would mean EpicNPC would have to MM all transactions, otherwise the risk would be too great. This is something I just have no interest in doing and from what I've heard from members that also use PA, doesn't work a whole lot better than direct transactions.

- Enlarge PM boxes so users communicate here rather than on unmonitorable external networks.
---This restriction is in place to stop spammers from abusing our PM system.

- Disallow trash e-mail hosts and ensure e-mail addresses are verified before posting rights are given.
--- I already block many throw-away email service providers and add new one's anytime I see one.

- Add phone verification as an absolute minimum when considering eligibility for selling/buying goods.
--- This could be something to consider, but my main concern would be turning away legit buyers/sellers

- Require ID verification before a user can put something for up for sale.
--- This is too much for me. I think requiring ID just to post would kill the site.

- Moderate new for sale threads and disallow the posting of public contact information.
--- Since this is a volunteer staff, we just can't moderate every new thread. However, disallowing contact info would be great. My only issue is that how do you create an addon the knows the different between text and a IM username? I've seen addons that block emails and phone numbers, but not many members post that. It's mainly Skype username or other chat services.

- Have people link their PayPal account to this site. You can receive feedback as a seller and give buyers feedback.
--- Im not sure I follow. You mean just record their Paypal email address to their EpicNPC account? Or is this something like Facebook or Twitter bridges?


At this time my complete focus is to fortify my server from any future attacks and once I feel comfortable I'll bring my attention back to site improvements.

 

[HELLHULK Gaming]

WARNING! Off-site contact information posted. Most scams occur off-site. Please contact members directly via EpicNPC chat. We do not investigate disputes if you communicate off-site.

- Have people link their PayPal account to this site. You can receive feedback as a seller and give buyers feedback.
--- Im not sure I follow. You mean just record their Paypal email address to their EpicNPC account? Or is this something like Facebook or Twitter bridges?


I for one do not want my paypal directly advertised. I see security issues with that already. Being a Pro seller, and premier business account (and yes I made enough last year that I had to file taxes) I don't want to advertise my paypal freely. Not to mention, gaming companies may ban my own game accounts I play using that said paypal.

That is just a bad idea all around.

My reputation here should show my honesty. 100% feedback means everything to me. Its just like Ebay.

IF you want complete safety best to deal with high rep'ed members. Pick and choose who you deal with.

 

[Zarathos]

http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/597567-WTS-ACCOUNT-main-15-5-CW-Pvorp-every-other-character-lv-60

Check that thread. That's why you should prohibit the posting of contact details in a thread. This, at the very least, forces users to register here and send a PM or leave a reply to get in touch. You can read PM's of others easily using freely available vBulletin mods and that should help in tracking scammers.

 

[Artemys]

http://www.epicnpc.com/threads/597567-WTS-ACCOUNT-main-15-5-CW-Pvorp-every-other-character-lv-60

Check that thread. That's why you should prohibit the posting of contact details in a thread. This, at the very least, forces users to register here and send a PM or leave a reply to get in touch. You can read PM's of others easily using freely available vBulletin mods and that should help in tracking scammers.

Talking from experience having heavily enforced this on an Old forum I modded prior to Epic, It's one of those things that sounds great on paper, takes a LOT of work/effort (Manually having to remove things like myemail[at]hotmail dot com, or AIM/Skype that don't require a @domain.com), I feel it did help but not enough for the effort required. Seeing how EpicNPCs memberbase is higher and our mod team is smaller than what we had there, It wouldn't be easy either. One of the downsides to this is contact details in profiles, I know there's an add-on that can block unregistered users from checking your profile and even if that was placed, it's still easy to register and check contact info there if they have it. Forcing them to PM wouldn't do much, by what I've seen most PMs go like "IM me at insertnamehere" or "hi I'm interested what's your IM" then it goes to IMs. Very few people ever do a deal over PMs. I'm one of those, when I'm contacted when I'm selling something, I'll chat on IM, but when it's business time I send that part of the communication through PM and ask them to reply through PM.

 

[doomedtofail]

This person included their account name in post not their regular contact details

 

[Sakura]

I also find his story doubtful as he asked us to remove it, then when we declined his request he reported his post and said "I've already had 6 people try to hack my account" which sounds ridiculous.

 

[Zarathos]

Here come my next rave. Art thou prepared?

Regarding the PM boxes.

If people abuse the PM system, you've an insufficient implementation. There's absolutely no reason to restrict inbox size unless you want to profit off of users.
- limit the amount of users a PM can be send to at once to 1
- throttle the amount of PM's that can be send in a certain time period
- disable PM messaging until you've verified your e-mail address
- set this to default: do not store a copy of sent pm's. Just count the amount of posts regarding a user's full inbox. It's ridiculous.
- set this to default: receive instant e-mail notification on reply to post and receiving PM.

I made a suggestion way back to allow people to receive PM's if their box is full (but not send). This was implemented afterwards. The point I"m trying to make, you lot haven't thought of this before. I'm just saying you can do so much with vBulletin, but it seems you've only scratched the surface of what's possible. Explore vBulletin. Use notices more appropriately or intuitively.


Regarding skype and contact details.

I've written mods for vBulletin. Write a plugin that when you submit a post the plugin checks the message for certain words or phrases such as skype, 'contact me', 'mail me at'. If such a word or phrase appears, the users cannot submit the post and are presented a warning as to why they cannot (eg. he has included contact details). This isn't similar to the censored word system vBulletin has. That censored word system is a disgrace to one's intellect (what's the point of censoring words if it's gets posted anyway albeit in ***). Heh.


Regarding spam.

- Use the stopforumspam.com plugin.
- You don't have a captcha system on registration. Use keycaptcha. Do not use recaptcha or anything involving words or letters.
- You already use cloudflare. Set it to medium security. This will block notorious spammers and even scammers that got reported.


Regarding scammers.

- Add an IP based flag system so people know who they're dealing with.
- Use proxy detection mods and block IANA ranges from hosting and server companies (blocks 90% of VPN/VPS/Dedicated server users).
- Like it or not, the majority of scammers come from the Asian sub-continent. Block countries through cloudflare where the ratio of scammers is over 60%.



The user goodkiddo still isn't banned despite my requests and having the same account as http://www.epicnpc.com/members/281525-ViperSerieS. He has scammed two folks already. I don't want to start a dispute because it's public. This is a flaw in your system. Conclusion: the user is scamming more people. That's two already. Ban him already. The other victim didn't want to bother with a dispute either.



Have a break. Have a kit kat.

 

[doomedtofail]

DId you post a dispute in active disputes? His other account is not banned its closed. Post a dispute like Ive told you to and we can move on from there.

- - - Updated - - -

"Add an IP based flag system so people know who they're dealing with."
There is one, i see it everyday. You guys don't get to see it but dont worry we do.

- - - Updated - - -

"- Like it or not, the majority of scammers come from the Asian sub-continent. Block countries through cloudflare where the ratio of scammers is over 60%."
Not true. I get scammed by and see people scammed more by fellow Americans, Australians and Europeans.

- - - Updated - - -

- Use proxy detection mods and block IANA ranges from hosting and server companies (blocks 90% of VPN/VPS/Dedicated server users).
Proxies are an issue, but people find ways back in here with out proxies and try to continue to scam.

- - - Updated - - -

"Regarding skype and contact details.

I've written mods for vBulletin. Write a plugin that when you submit a post the plugin checks the message for certain words or phrases such as skype, 'contact me', 'mail me at'. If such a word or phrase appears, the users cannot submit the post and are presented a warning as to why they cannot (eg. he has included contact details). This isn't similar to the censored word system vBulletin has. That censored word system is a disgrace to one's intellect (what's the point of censoring words if it's gets posted anyway albeit in ***). Heh."

You guys keep bring this up. I do not think this is the real issue. Contact details are fine i think. I don't have many issues with this. I personally wouldn't use this site if i cannot post and contact people immediately but instead had to wait hours for people to check their pms then add me or respond via pm.

 

[Logical Nonsense]

how about you ****ing whiners just pull up your big boy manties and deal with it instead of always bitching and complaining. if its not "X" mod did this, or "i dont like this feature" add a dash of "waaaaa my vagina hurts, i want a copy of 50 shades of grey with my membership". ****. grow up or leave. but either way, shut up.

 

[Sakura]

A closed account is not a banned account.

 

[Keiichi]

Banned - dispute - https://www.epicnpc.com/threads/keiichi-owes-me-fees-i-hope-he-is-okay-cool-dude.1433002/

how about you ****ing whiners just pull up your big boy manties and deal with it instead of always bitching and complaining. if its not "X" mod did this, or "i dont like this feature" add a dash of "waaaaa my vagina hurts, i want a copy of 50 shades of grey with my membership". ****. grow up or leave. but either way, shut up.

Indeed, pretty annoying

 

[Zarathos]

If you find it annoying you may want to reconsider if being moderator is the best position for you. You take on a responsibility as a moderator and should preferably present yourself as a neutral entity and welcome criticism. Your reply carries a lot more weight than that of a normal member's. Oh and Logical Nonsense is the third member here who tells me to leave if I don't like it here. Not a welcoming bunch are you? The first impression is what counts. Ask yourselves this instead: what can we do to make Zarathos happy?

It's a rave and rant thread, that's what you get. But what's really annoying is that the majority of you don't appreciate discussion. You just stay quiet, wave off suggestions or convince yourselves what currently is - is good enough, let things run their course and hope no-one makes a hassle or questions stuff.

That is just my general observation .


"Raving I'm Raving" - Peter Bouncer

- - - Updated - - -

And I would like to thank everyone who took the time to evaluate my suggestions line by line. That's something I can appreciate!

 

[doomedtofail]

Yeah i tried. thought out suggestions are never really bad. Implementation and benefits from the work are what makes final decisions. The only one i dont see any benefit to is the contact method one, the others ones have benefits but are either implemented in a different way or the benefits dont outway work required or implementation. I understand that contact details can lead to impersonation, but if you take the time to pm on forums its safer. The only issues i see with contact details is people giving out too much information or sensitive info. You will never see me post my phone number, account name, toon name and other things i see people post all the time. Other day a SCARAB lord account was posted with real armories and everything. Thats a no no. Either blizzard will see it or someone will report it out of jealousy of a scarab lord account

 

[HELLHULK Gaming]

If you find it annoying you may want to reconsider if being moderator is the best position for you. You take on a responsibility as a moderator and should preferably present yourself as a neutral entity and welcome criticism. Your reply carries a lot more weight than that of a normal member's. Oh and Logical Nonsense is the third member here who tells me to leave if I don't like it here. Not a welcoming bunch are you? The first impression is what counts. Ask yourselves this instead: what can we do to make Zarathos happy?

It's a rave and rant thread, that's what you get. But what's really annoying is that the majority of you don't appreciate discussion. You just stay quiet, wave off suggestions or convince yourselves what currently is - is good enough, let things run their course and hope no-one makes a hassle or questions stuff.


I am no mod, but I don't want anyone to "leave" unless it is due to dishonesty. I welcome opinions and sometimes they even change my position when logically explained to me.

BTW- I am being called a scammer again by some guy in the TSW section. You want to see annoying come check that thread out..I just want to punch the guy in the face now.

It is a child I am quite sure at this point.

 

[kenzilla]

Good read. Im sure this will help me in the future appreciate it guys