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  1. #16
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    It's not the actual recall that is negated but the financial loss.
    So if you lose the account they actually refund your money. (Unlike a certain other website)
    As you say there are no perfect systems to accommodate account trading, but its much better than nothing.

    On a sidenote, if you would sell me your account and recalled it I would get it banned via support. I would also tell you this before we make the deal.


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  3. #17
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    Approved Epicnpc MM for Trade Guardian. Non-employee.
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    Well now it makes more sense, but the way you posted, you said they actually protect from account recall. So thats why I told you that it was impossible.

    About account bans I honestly doubt it So if I lose my account to some scammer, means steam will just ban it? I don't wanna go into too much details on how recall works etc etc, because people would abuse this. Perhaps you're right, but in my 3 years experience I have never seen a recalled account that was banned after. Also people I MM'ed for never actually contacted me back if they were scammed


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  5. #18
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    Hellow,
    I allow myself to drop a little message about this situation. As I do not provide any MM service, it's not a money story at all.

    I'm active on a lot of forum currently, and, so far I know, each those are working great because they have an active communauty where Admins (website owner) are quite detached.
    For me, it's essential that Admins do not force people to stop services in order to start his own (except when website security/community is in threatened).

    The old middleman system (fully driven by users) is something who have proven its success. I agree we can impose a thread template to improve lisibility, but imposing a not convienent system seem for me, not a solution.
    Since we removed the Middleman Thread and officials middleman positions, I often see users asking for middleman, because they couldn't find any, because users feel lost.

    Also, as already said before: you will not be able to know how to securise all the games exchanges. As exemple: a steam account trade and a POE trade is something really different, and require a specialist middleman.

    To conclude: I fully agree with @The Integrity and @@rmik | ROADTO7K.COM .



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  7. #19
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    Agree with Cecile28, sometimes when people came across me and asked whether I support this certain game or not, I would tell them that I don't and I would send them to Integrity or other middleman that I knew are capable of doing it.

    It's not a rocket sience to learn how a new game works, but sometimes a game wasn't supported in my country (and at that time I didn't know how to bypass it).


  8. #20
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    @Kyo7763
    However, what I am having a hard time understanding is how you can charge for this service; and furthermore, state in the video state that it is "guaranteed to be delivered" and then post that it actually isn't guaranteed. That seems a little odd to me.
    The video was created a while ago and does not discuss the new "Personal Middleman" serivce. However I don't understand your comment. The new service does guarantee payment and item delivery. However it does not guarantee anything after the transaction is complete.

    Recalls
    As stated above multiple times, no one can safe guard against recalls. Offering a warranty that guarantees recall protection creates a conflict of interests, which is why we decided against it.

    Example:

    MM offers recall protections for a fee ($50 protection fee)
    Bob sells account to Joe for $1000
    Bob or previous owner then recalls account

    The MM has to make a decision.

    1) Does he believe the account was actually recalled?
    2) If yes, does he want to pay Joe the value of the account ($1000)?

    The immediate question becomes "does the MM want to pay $1000 to Joe?" This answer is always no. No one want to have to pay $1000 regardless of what actually happened. Because of this, when the MM reviews the claim, it will be biased. They will look for anything to deny the claim. This in turns make the protection fee irrelevant and just a way to get another fee from a transaction.

    It doesn't matter the site PA, G2G or who ever else, it is in the best interested of the MM to deny the claim.

    I didn't want to get involved in a business like this. Perhaps in the future we can come up with another business model that's a little more honest and less biased, but for now we're not going to offer recall protection.


    Chargeback protection
    Similar to recalls, for most payment methods it's impossible to prevent a chargeback or payment dispute. It can be a stolen CC, PP account, or they can dispute it with their bank or credit card company. Our Trade Guardian Bitcoin option is the only fully protected chargeback method and has a low 3% fee. So if you want 100% fully protected chargeback protection, I recommend opening a bitcoin wallet and start accepting that as payment.


    MM Competition
    I understand the argument to allow for MM competition, however I do not agree with it. From a buyer's perspective, when I go to a site to buy something, I want it to be simple. Once I made a purchase, I want everything to be straight forward, I don't want to have to conduct an 2nd search to have to buy something else.

    We're making another update to TG to better integrate this new MM option directly into threads, so it'll be very easy for buyers to get started once they find the item they want. Once that's implemented, most likely next week, there's really not going to be any need to look around for a MM as it will be directly in the thread.


    Service Hours
    This service is new, so our business hours are going to be limited. We want to get a few weeks under our belts to see how it's working and make changes accordingly. Once we feel everything is running smoothly, we'll expand the hours and into weekends. You can consider this in beta if you like, then we'll have a full release later on.

    Last edited by EpicNPC; 11-03-2017 at 10:21 AM.
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  9. #21
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    MM Competition
    I understand the argument to allow for MM competition, however I do not agree with it. From a buyer's perspective, when I go to a site to buy something, I want it to be simple. Once I made a purchase, I want everything to be straight forward, I don't want to have to conduct an 2nd search to have to buy something else.

    We're making another update to TG to better integrate this new MM option directly into threads, so it'll be very easy for buyers to get started once they find the item they want. Once that's implemented, most likely next week, there's really not going to be any need to look around for a MM as it will be directly in the thread.

    This is most ***** thing u ever said.Even worse than statemant that PA make good decisions about their insurance coverage.I am not middleman or so , but u are abusing power over everyone else,if ur system is soo good , then promote it , and let ppl choose , do not force them to use it.



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  11. #22
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    Agree with the point that everyone here should have the right to choose who to go with. That's like basic sense of any free forum.

    If the buyer wants to go with your middleman thread he will choose your over anyone else, but there must be a reason why you're better than others. Right now he will be bruteforced to use your service because there is no choice for him, regardless of what he thinks about your middleman and such.

    Same thing would be if you shut down account sales for WoW accounts and say it's "easier" for buyer to choose our account shop rather that looking for 1000 different threads in purpose of finding what is really good for him.


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  13. #23
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    It's indeed a question: monopoly vs concurence
    For sure, we can argue that monopoly induces simplicity.

    But in my mind, the aim of forums like Epic is concurence and diversity (when it does not concern security like upgrades wich require a centralization).
    Forcing user to use an "official" service seem against the basic idea of an open exchange plateform, and against any idea of what a forum is.

    Centralized middleman will induce loss of redondancy, loss of choice (wich can be view as an advantage), and loss of middleman skill (overall perspective).
    Furthermore: if you look around, no major forum / trading plateform with only an official middleman have good reputation, I think it's significant.

    Last edited by Cecile28; 11-03-2017 at 02:02 PM.

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  15. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by @rmik | ROADTO7K.COM View Post
    Agree with the point that everyone here should have the right to choose who to go with. That's like basic sense of any free forum.

    If the buyer wants to go with your middleman thread he will choose your over anyone else, but there must be a reason why you're better than others. Right now he will be bruteforced to use your service because there is no choice for him, regardless of what he thinks about your middleman and such.

    Same thing would be if you shut down account sales for WoW accounts and say it's "easier" for buyer to choose our account shop rather that looking for 1000 different threads in purpose of finding what is really good for him.
    But as we can see lately , greed is going high And in one hand is his forum he can do whatever he wants , we , sellers made it famous so he doenst need us anymore , feel free to kick competition.


  16. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    MM Competition
    I understand the argument to allow for MM competition, however I do not agree with it. From a buyer's perspective, when I go to a site to buy something, I want it to be simple. Once I made a purchase, I want everything to be straight forward, I don't want to have to conduct an 2nd search to have to buy something else.

    We're making another update to TG to better integrate this new MM option directly into threads, so it'll be very easy for buyers to get started once they find the item they want. Once that's implemented, most likely next week, there's really not going to be any need to look around for a MM as it will be directly in the thread.
    Ridiculous, really.



  17. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    MM Competition
    I understand the argument to allow for MM competition, however I do not agree with it. From a buyer's perspective, when I go to a site to buy something, I want it to be simple. Once I made a purchase, I want everything to be straight forward, I don't want to have to conduct an 2nd search to have to buy something else.

    We're making another update to TG to better integrate this new MM option directly into threads, so it'll be very easy for buyers to get started once they find the item they want. Once that's implemented, most likely next week, there's really not going to be any need to look around for a MM as it will be directly in the thread.
    That's bullshit.
    What you are doing is abusing your position to become dominant in the market and eliminate competition. You are creating monopoly.
    You are eliminating the same people who contributed to making your forum popular and reach it's current state.

    This is actually very illegal in real life. There was an incident just few months ago when google abused it's position in a similar way. And they got charged $2.7 billion for that...

    Nothing prevents you from doing this, but I'm trying to point it out that it is extremely unfair towards your members, who made you what you are today. So many people are making a living out of EpicNPC and for many it is their primary job. If you are abusing your position like this, what guarantee do they have that their job won't suddenly be destroyed? How can they keep seeing the forum as a safe and stable place?

    If your service is good, members will use it.
    If it's not, they will find an alternative. The harder you force them, the harder they'll look for an alternative and your reputation will drop.

    Forcing them might earn you some cash now, but in the long run it will be more damaging than profitable. You should focus on improving quality, not on forcing members to use something that they might not like.


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  19. #27
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    We view Middleman Services as a security feature. If we can increase the security and safety of trades and sales, this will greatly benefit all members. Sellers will be more comfortable selling and buyers will be more comfortable buying.

    The MM service is not comparable to normal items, accounts or services that members sell. For example a few years ago when we had a "Gold Store" where we tried to empower members in an attempt to make buying gold easier for various games. Now, that service didn't work out so we closed it, but we did not restrict anyone during the time it was opened. Members still sold gold for those same games are they normally did.

    We're not here to "bruteforce" sales or to create a "monopoly", sellers can do what they have always done and that's to sell their game items or services freely.

    We're just trying to make the process safer, which in my opinion is the obligation of the website to try to do. We have phone verification, we manually review upgrades and we have free dispute resolution services, none of this is needed if we wanted to pass on security to members. All of this is time consuming and expensive, but we do it to try to create a safe community for our members.

    This new Middleman service is the next step to increase security. If we can create an effective MM service that's easy to use and makes transactions safe, then it will benefit everyone.

    Last edited by EpicNPC; 11-03-2017 at 02:06 PM.

  20. #28
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    The amount of ******** keeps increasing...

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    We view Middleman Services as a security feature. If we can increase the security and safety of trades and sales, this will greatly benefit all members. Sellers will be more comfortable selling and buyers will be more comfortable buying.
    I view it as a security feature too.
    That is a pretty accurate definition of MM service...

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    The MM service is not comparable to normal items, accounts or services that members sell.
    It is a service that involves trading virtual items/online games that members profit from. How is it not comparable?

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    For example a few years ago when we had a "Gold Store" where we tried to empower members in an attempt to make buying gold easier for various games. Now, that service didn't work out so we closed it, but we did not restrict anyone during the time it was opened. Members still sold gold for those same games are they normally did.
    Good times. You weren't greedy back then and listened to your members.
    That's just the thing that we want now...

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    We're not here to "bruteforce" sales or to create a "monopoly"
    That's exactly what you are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    We're just trying to make the process safer, which in my opinion is the obligation of the website to try to do.
    How is your service safer than the service that trusted members were offering for years? At this point, it can only be less safe, as the people who are doing it don't have nearly as much experience.

    How does making your service the only one available make anything safer?

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    We have phone verification, we manually review upgrades and we have free dispute resolution services, none of this is needed if we wanted to pass on security to members. All of this is time consuming and expensive, but we do it to try to create a safe community for our members.
    Irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by EpicNPC View Post
    This new Middleman service is the next step to increase security. If we can create an effective MM service that's easy to use and makes transactions safe, then it will benefit everyone.
    The service cannot be much safer or effective than the variety of experienced members offering the same thing.

    Sorry, but you are just avoiding the real problem here and trying to hide your greed.


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  22. #29
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    It's seem you're mistaken between two idea:
    1/ Starting an official middleman service
    2/ Restricting all other middleman

    I can agree that point (1) will improve security, and it's a good point that EpicNPC propose his service as "official plateform"

    But restricting other middleman is for sure, not going on that direction.
    Nowadays, people are only advertising middleman service on their signatures or on their threads.
    All theses things you wrote: upgrade, phone verification, feedback are really good improvement.

    For me, a compromise would be:
    Start that system, advertise it everywhere, and limit the people who can offer middleman service to let's say the top 5%: people with 4/5 badges, +300 feedbacks.

    It's not perfect, some may turn into scamming, but trust your system as we trust EpicNPC plateform.
    What's telling us that EpicNPC will not disconnect the website one day, with all the credits, the IDs, and all the items engaged on the middleman service ?
    The same thing than middlemans: reputation, and because it's your (their) buisness (and your money) !

    Trust the system you made and at least trust your high ranked members. They're the ones who are making that plateform so great.

    That will be my last message into that thread. I think everyone catched my point of vue ^.^

    Last edited by Cecile28; 11-03-2017 at 02:33 PM.

  23. #30
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    Members that sell game accounts, items and services do for a certain amount of games, so the scope is limited to those games. A middleman service has a much wider reach and includes everything. This is what I mean by they're not comparable, we're not selling a item or service for a specific game. Secondly MM services is a security service, not a game service. As stated, a website has an obligation to provide safety to it's community and a dedicated MM can do just that.

    In regards to safety, take a look at the dispute forum. Many disputes involve fake MM and many more tickets and messages report similar scam attempts . Having a single unified MM service make it's simpler and causes less confusion for buyers. It greatly reduces the fake MM scam by keeping everything on site.


 

 
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